# Stand Yer Ground: a drunk, scared teen looking for help might knock on your door **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 15, 2013, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-yer-ground-a-drunk-scared-teen-looking-for-help-might-knock-on-your-door/673956 "2013-11-15T02:14:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2013, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-yer-ground-a-drunk-scared-teen-looking-for-help-might-knock-on-your-door/673956/61 "2013-11-15T21:44:07Z")
- Note to self: if QS ever comes to Denver, a day at the range does not count as funtimes \* ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2013, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-yer-ground-a-drunk-scared-teen-looking-for-help-might-knock-on-your-door/673956/62 "2013-11-15T22:06:43Z")
The guy was only following Joe Biden’s advice on self defense. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2013, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-yer-ground-a-drunk-scared-teen-looking-for-help-might-knock-on-your-door/673956/63 "2013-11-15T22:42:13Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > This is straight from the police? This absolutely rules out a accidental discharge? [News report](http://www.pressandguide.com/articles/2013/11/11/news/doc528136273cbae891624476.txt) sourced to the coroner on her being shot with “no evidence of close range discharge.” [A Disctrict Attorney](http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/prosecutor-to-announce-whether-shell-seek-charges-in-detroit-area-porch-shooting/2013/11/15/ab6377ae-4dbb-11e3-97f6-ed8e3053083b_story.html) said that she knocked on a locked screen door and there were no signs of forced entry. > [@](#): > > Lot of stuff to be investigated and assessed before he actually gets hung IMO. Also lots of stuff to be explained before he’s declared a self-defense hero. And it is “hanged,” not “hung.” Criminals are hanged, I am hung. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2013, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-yer-ground-a-drunk-scared-teen-looking-for-help-might-knock-on-your-door/673956/64 "2013-11-15T22:58:24Z")
The homeowner better start packing his bags for prison. There’s no defense for shooting someone on your porch. Unless theres clear evidence they are trying to force open a window or door. This case has no connection at all with the Trayvon Martin shooting. He was beating the crap out of someone that defended themselves. If you’re safely behind a locked door. Call 911. If the person kicks in the door and starts to enter, then you can justifiably defend yourself. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2013, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-yer-ground-a-drunk-scared-teen-looking-for-help-might-knock-on-your-door/673956/65 "2013-11-15T23:14:22Z")
Charges were filed. [http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083\_162-57612553-504083/renisha-mcbride-update-theodore-wafer-mich-homeowner-charged-with-second-degree-murder-manslaughter-in-teens-shooting-death/](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57612553-504083/renisha-mcbride-update-theodore-wafer-mich-homeowner-charged-with-second-degree-murder-manslaughter-in-teens-shooting-death/) > [@](#): > > Prosecutors announced Friday morning that they have charged Theodore P. Wafer with second degree murder and manslaughter in the death of Renisha McBride early on Nov. 2 in Dearborn Heights, Mich. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2014, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-yer-ground-a-drunk-scared-teen-looking-for-help-might-knock-on-your-door/673956/66 "2014-08-07T19:13:07Z")
[Wafer has been convicted of second-degree murder.](http://bigstory.ap.org/article/1st-full-day-deliberations-porch-shooting) ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2014, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-yer-ground-a-drunk-scared-teen-looking-for-help-might-knock-on-your-door/673956/67 "2014-08-07T19:33:20Z")
\ ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2014, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-yer-ground-a-drunk-scared-teen-looking-for-help-might-knock-on-your-door/673956/68 "2014-08-07T19:50:52Z")
News article says he was convicted of murder _and_ manslaughter. IANAL, but I thought a murder conviction required evidence of intent to kill, and manslaughter is what you get charged with when you didn’t intent to kill (but death was a predictable outcome of your actions). How can he be found guilty of both? ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2014, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-yer-ground-a-drunk-scared-teen-looking-for-help-might-knock-on-your-door/673956/69 "2014-08-07T20:14:54Z")
Possibly as a backstop against the murder two charge being thrown out or appealed. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2014, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-yer-ground-a-drunk-scared-teen-looking-for-help-might-knock-on-your-door/673956/70 "2014-08-07T20:28:40Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > News article says he was convicted of murder _and_ manslaughter. IANAL, but I thought a murder conviction required evidence of intent to kill, and manslaughter is what you get charged with when you didn’t intent to kill (but death was a predictable outcome of your actions). > > How can he be found guilty of both? The jury gets charged with both – there’s always a chance they will say that he didn’t have the requisite mental state or intent for murder, but he _was_ criminally negligent, so not guilty for murder but guilty for manslaughter. When the jury finds guilt on both offenses, they merge into one for sentencing purposes. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2014, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-yer-ground-a-drunk-scared-teen-looking-for-help-might-knock-on-your-door/673956/71 "2014-08-07T20:37:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The jury gets charged with both – there’s always a chance they will say that he didn’t have the requisite mental state or intent for murder, but he _was_ criminally negligent, so not guilty for murder but guilty for manslaughter. > > When the jury finds guilt on both offenses, they merge into one for sentencing purposes. I understand why a defendant might be _charged_ with both murder and manslaughter for a single act, but I’m still not seeing the answer to my question: how can he be found simultaneously _guilty_ of two charges that would appear (to me at least) to have mutually exclusive characteristics (intent vs. lack of intent)? ---
**Author:** ![Aangelica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Aangelica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aangelica)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2014, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-yer-ground-a-drunk-scared-teen-looking-for-help-might-knock-on-your-door/673956/72 "2014-08-07T20:52:21Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > I understand why a defendant might be _charged_ with both murder and manslaughter for a single act, but I’m still not seeing the answer to my question: how can he be found simultaneously _guilty_ of two charges that would appear (to me at least) to have mutually exclusive characteristics (intent vs. lack of intent)? To simplify greatly, it’s sometimes less that you _must_ have lack of intent to be convicted for something like manslaughter than that in order to be convicted of the greater charge you must _also_ have intent. It’s certainly possible to be convicted of manslaughter in circumstances when you meant to kill someone and in circumstances when you did not mean to kill someone. It is not, however, possible to be convicted of murder (in most jurisdictions, barring something like felony murder) without having intended someone’s death. The concept of lesser included offenses (of which manslaughter is one in this case - as are, for example, assault and battery) just lists off _all_ the behavior an accused criminal is at least arguably guilty of. Someone who beats someone else to death may be guilty of both battery and manslaughter. If they meant to kill them, they may also be guilty of murder in addition. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2014, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-yer-ground-a-drunk-scared-teen-looking-for-help-might-knock-on-your-door/673956/73 "2014-08-07T21:07:42Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > I understand why a defendant might be _charged_ with both murder and manslaughter for a single act, but I’m still not seeing the answer to my question: how can he be found simultaneously _guilty_ of two charges that would appear (to me at least) to have mutually exclusive characteristics (intent vs. lack of intent)? So here’s what happens when the jury renders a set of verdicts that seem inconsistent. You first need to look at the elements of each crime. Second-degree murder in Michigan [ul] [li]Accused caused the death of the victim[/li][li]Accused either intended to kill, or intended to do great bodily harm, or knowingly created a very high risk of death or great bodily harm knowing that death or such harm would be the likely result of his actions[/li][li]The killing was not justified or excused[/li][li]The killing was not done under circumstances, such as provocation, that would reduce it to a lesser crime[/li][/ul] Manslaughter in Michigan [ul][li]Accused caused the death of the victim[/li][li]Accused either intended to kill, or intended to do great bodily harm, or knowingly created a very high risk of death or great bodily harm knowing that death or such harm would be the likely result of his actions[/li][li]The killing was not justified or excused[/li][/ul] Second-degree murder has all the elements of manslaughter, plus an additional one. So we’d say that manslaughter is a lesser-included offense of second-degree murder. The verdicts aren’t actually inconsistent. It’s just that second-degree murder includes an extra element. If you prove all of manslaughter’s elements, AND you prove no circumstances like provocation, you’ve proved second-degree murder. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2014, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-yer-ground-a-drunk-scared-teen-looking-for-help-might-knock-on-your-door/673956/74 "2014-08-07T21:20:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Second-degree murder in Michigan > [ul] > [li]Accused caused the death of the victim[/li][li]Accused either intended to kill, or intended to do great bodily harm, or knowingly created a very high risk of death or great bodily harm knowing that death or such harm would be the likely result of his actions[/li][li]The killing was not justified or excused[/li][li]The killing was not done under circumstances, such as provocation, that would reduce it to a lesser crime[/li][/ul] By those standards, he’s definitely guilty of 2nd degree murder. The jury got it right. ---
**Author:** ![chiroptera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@chiroptera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chiroptera)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2014, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-yer-ground-a-drunk-scared-teen-looking-for-help-might-knock-on-your-door/673956/75 "2014-08-07T21:47:12Z")
This happened about an hour from me and l’ve been following the story. I am so glad the jury made the right decision…l hope Mr. Wafer gets the maximum sentence possible. Thanks to Bricker for succinctly explaining the elements of the crime. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-yer-ground-a-drunk-scared-teen-looking-for-help-might-knock-on-your-door/673956/76 "2014-08-08T06:24:52Z")
[pedantic]From the linked article: > [@](#): > > “She ended up in the morgue with bullets in her head and in her brain because the defendant picked up this shotgun, released this safety, raised it at her, pulled the trigger and blew her face off,” Muscat told jurors, holding the gun. Nope. Pellets, not bullets, but it doesn’t sounds as bad.[/pedantic] ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-yer-ground-a-drunk-scared-teen-looking-for-help-might-knock-on-your-door/673956/77 "2014-08-08T07:53:03Z")
> [@Karrius](#): > > And also things like the [76 year old man shoots 13 year old neighbor who he assumes is a thief.](http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/trial-milwaukee-mom-recounts-shooting-son-13-article-1.1400993) What’s interesting about this case is after the child was shot, the _mother_ was detained and interrogated by police, while the murderer was free to come and go from his house, potentially tampering with evidence. Interesting? The child and mother were black; the shooter white. It’s almost hard to remember that whites shooting blacks is considered criminal in U.S.A. Was the Wafer conviction an aberration caused by high publicity? ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-yer-ground-a-drunk-scared-teen-looking-for-help-might-knock-on-your-door/673956/78 "2014-08-08T11:56:37Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > It’s almost hard to remember that whites shooting blacks is considered criminal in U.S.A. Was the Wafer conviction an aberration caused by high publicity? WTF are you talking about? Did you read the article **Karrius** linked to? It announced the _conviction_ of a white guy shooting a black kid. Or are you inferring a vast collection of cleverly hidden cases in which white folks shot black folks without any justification whatsoever? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-yer-ground-a-drunk-scared-teen-looking-for-help-might-knock-on-your-door/673956/79 "2014-08-08T12:39:54Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > WTF are you talking about? Did you read the article **Karrius** linked to? It announced the _conviction_ of a white guy shooting a black kid. > > Or are you inferring a vast collection of cleverly hidden cases in which white folks shot black folks without any justification whatsoever? No; a vast collection of not-hidden-at-all cases where “white folks shot black folks without any justification”, and got away with it. This stands out because the guy was actually convicted; that’s unusual. Generally you can practically kill black people for sport and get away with it. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-yer-ground-a-drunk-scared-teen-looking-for-help-might-knock-on-your-door/673956/80 "2014-08-08T13:03:21Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > WTF are you talking about? Did you read the article **Karrius** linked to? It announced the _conviction_ of a white guy shooting a black kid. He plainly refers to the conviction and says it’s an exception. Other than the Zimmerman trial I can’t think of another example of a recent shooting that went that way, but unfortunately [killings like this](http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/16/justice/florida-loud-music-trial/) [seem to happen](http://online.wsj.com/articles/staten-island-man-died-of-choke-hold-administered-by-nypd-officer-new-york-city-medical-examiner-1406922200) [fairly regularly](http://www.wsoctv.com/news/news/man-holding-realistic-looking-toy-gun-shot-killed-/ngxTX/) to people who look a certain way. (Yes, adding in killings by police may confuse this issue.) The unfortunate implication here is that this grows out of our attitudes about crime and race as well as police tactics. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-yer-ground-a-drunk-scared-teen-looking-for-help-might-knock-on-your-door/673956.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-yer-ground-a-drunk-scared-teen-looking-for-help-might-knock-on-your-door/673956.md?page=5)