# Standalone student debt forgiveness is a terrible policy **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 19, 2020, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standalone-student-debt-forgiveness-is-a-terrible-policy/925976 "2020-11-19T16:28:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standalone-student-debt-forgiveness-is-a-terrible-policy/925976/61 "2020-11-20T19:08:01Z")
> [@Bill\_Door](#): > > I remember the resistance to Medicare back in the 60s. It sounded much the same. Some people planned their lives better, and those grasshoppers shouldn’t be rewarded for pissing away their substance. And Medicare is available to everyone over 65 and is somewhat more difficult to get cost-free if you have a lifetime of never paying employment taxes. So it’s not the straightforward “reward poor planning” program that was objected to. And being able to provide basic health care to people who might otherwise be expected to just go die remains totally unanalogous to giving a cash handout to middle class Biden voters no matter how many times you insist it’s the same. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standalone-student-debt-forgiveness-is-a-terrible-policy/925976/62 "2020-11-20T19:11:47Z")
There is no way this proposed plan wouldn’t cause considerable resentment by those who paid the hard way. See this confrontation between Elizabeth Warren and a father during the primaries, for instance: > **[Warren Confronted Over Student Loans: 'Get Screwed' for Doing 'Right Thing'](https://www.newsweek.com/elizabeth-warren-confronted-father-about-student-loan-plan-iowa-those-us-that-did-right-thing-1483793)** > > Senator Elizabeth Warren was confronted at a campaign event by a father upset over her plan to forgive student loan debt. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standalone-student-debt-forgiveness-is-a-terrible-policy/925976/63 "2020-11-20T19:25:53Z")
Again, not how policy is decided. Will anyone dislike this? Yes?! We begin again! ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standalone-student-debt-forgiveness-is-a-terrible-policy/925976/64 "2020-11-20T19:27:26Z")
And yet when the CARES act gave 43,000 taxpayers in the United States all earning in excess of $1 million per year an average of $1.6 million each with unlimited pass-through deductions that was all fine? When Delta airlines which made a net profit of $4.8 billion dollars in **net** profit in 2019 showed up with a bushel basket for subsidies around 10 minutes after the first COVID case arrived up you’re all fine with that. If you want to stimulate the economy you’ve got to subsidize the middle class. The rich just keep it, and the poor have debt to pay down and won’t be spending it. Hell, I’m not even rich and I didn’t spend mine. I put it into the stock market, or rather instead of my normal IRA withdrawal that month I did a conversion into a Roth, which is effectively the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standalone-student-debt-forgiveness-is-a-terrible-policy/925976/65 "2020-11-20T19:43:55Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Again, not how policy is decided. Will anyone dislike this? Yes?! We begin again! I would prefer that Biden’s first act as president not be to embrace Twitter-obsessive pandering issues with the attitude that “we don’t care if this will piss off voters.” We had enough of that before and it ended up with Trump and a 2020 election that came disturbingly close to re-electing him. Biden is supposed to be smarter than this. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standalone-student-debt-forgiveness-is-a-terrible-policy/925976/66 "2020-11-20T19:45:36Z")
> **[New Poll Shows Substantial, Bipartisan Support For Student Loan Forgiveness...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamminsky/2020/09/25/new-poll-shows-substantial-bipartisan-support-for-student-loan-forgiveness-and-other-relief-for-borrowers/?sh=4e62a4c72b7c)** > > A new poll released today by Student Defense, the Defend Students Action Fund, and Data for Progress indicates there is substantial, bipartisan support for student loan relief programs and widespread student loan forgiveness. ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standalone-student-debt-forgiveness-is-a-terrible-policy/925976/67 "2020-11-20T19:45:51Z")
> [@Bill\_Door](#): > > And yet when the CARES act gave 43,000 taxpayers in the United States all earning in excess of $1 million per year an average of $1.6 million each with unlimited pass-through deductions that was all fine? No. > [@](#): > > When Delta airlines which made a net profit of $4.8 billion dollars in **net** profit in 2019 showed up with a bushel basket for subsidies around 10 minutes after the first COVID case arrived up you’re all fine with that. Am I? > [@](#): > > If you want to stimulate the economy you’ve got to subsidize the middle class. The rich just keep it, and the poor have debt to pay down and won’t be spending it. OK, I’m in the middle class. Give me 50,000 dollars and whatever I don’t put in a savings or investment account will directly be used to stimulate sellers of luxury goods rather than go to the holders of student loan debt. I don’t have any student loan debt so I will be a much more effective economic engine. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standalone-student-debt-forgiveness-is-a-terrible-policy/925976/68 "2020-11-20T19:46:10Z")
> [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > I would prefer that Biden’s first act as president not be to embrace Twitter-obsessive pandering issues with the attitude that “we don’t care if this will piss off voters.” We had enough of that before {…} Examples? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standalone-student-debt-forgiveness-is-a-terrible-policy/925976/69 "2020-11-20T19:49:38Z")
> [@BeepKillBeep](#): > > I’ve always been fascinated by this reasoning. It is a great hindrance to any hope of making progress. Yes, it is unfortunate that such programs were not put into place earlier (people should stop voting Republican, since they’re the main reason why society cannot have nice things), but why not remedy the situation as best as possible in the here and now? In other words, why not make progress? I just had this conversation with my mother three hours ago. I also brought up that we push college as the primary means to success. My high school measures success by how many of their students went to college (never mind how many graduate from college because that’s not their problem) and everything they did was geared towards preparing me to be an undergraduate. > [@](#): > > This same thing happened in World of Warcraft when they lowered the mount cost from 1000 gold (I think?) to 40 gold (I think). People howled! I fought hard to save up 1000 gold! I want a 960 gold refund! Outrage! Outrage! I had the same thought! It was the right decision to make even though I wish they had made it in time to help me. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standalone-student-debt-forgiveness-is-a-terrible-policy/925976/70 "2020-11-20T21:46:06Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > This from Google search: > > > In 1975 the average cost was **$7,833** (in **2015 dollars** ) including tuition, fees, and living expenses. Is that per year or per semester? I’d kinda like to look at your source. I’d love to dream about going to college for a reasonable tuition. But “Google search” won’t get me very far. Can you give us the link? ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standalone-student-debt-forgiveness-is-a-terrible-policy/925976/71 "2020-11-20T21:53:20Z")
> [@Bill\_Door](#): > > My life has been easier because of the contributions of the people who came before me, and I expect to contribute to the people who will be here after I’m gone. Why do you hate America? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standalone-student-debt-forgiveness-is-a-terrible-policy/925976/72 "2020-11-20T22:36:31Z")
> [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > OK, I’m in the middle class. Give me 50,000 dollars and whatever I don’t put in a savings or investment account will directly be used to stimulate sellers of luxury goods rather than go to the holders of student loan debt. I don’t have any student loan debt so I will be a much more effective economic engine. We. Can’t. Do. That. That’s what you seem to be missing. There is no way for Biden to, by executive order, give you extra money. However, there appears to be a strategy by which student loans can be forgiven. It’s also not something Congress is going to go for, when we can’t even get them to pass a second stimulus bill. Yet, apparently, student loan forgiveness is enjoying bipartisan support. Politics is the art of the possible. You have to take what you can get. If a politician opposes X because Y is better, but X has tons of support and Y has little likelihood of passing, then said politician is just covering ro not supporting the goal in teh first place. They’re betting that they can make sure neither X nor Y occurs. If it ever becomes possible to try your Y, then that’s what we should do. But I can’t see how doing X, forgiving student loans, in any way would preclude doing Y in the future if it ever gets support. This is true for basically every single proposal that has been given as an alternative. As such, the comparison is not between X and Y, but between X and not X. Any valid argument has to show why not forgiving student loans results in a better outcome. As much as I think poorly of the people @Velocity describes\*, his argument about resentment is a genuine downside. I would just argue that it’s not necessarily a showstopper—we’d need to keep an eye on the polls. Compare the numbers strongly for to those strongly against. Ultimately every political decision will make those vehemently against it angry. The question is how many people that is, and how powerful they are. \*And I think I have a right to. I am someone who dropped out of college to avoid taking on student debt, because I’d seen how debt could cripple people. I now regret my decision. It would suck that others would have gotten something I could have gotten, but that’s life in general, and something you have to accept. Other people get lucky in ways I don’t, and I get lucky in ways they don’t–and it doesn’t average out. ---
**Author:** ![thatguyjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6de8d8/32.png) [@thatguyjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thatguyjeff)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2020, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standalone-student-debt-forgiveness-is-a-terrible-policy/925976/73 "2020-11-21T02:33:29Z")
I’ve (or they have) suffered, therefore you too must suffer - that’s not a good argument. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2020, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standalone-student-debt-forgiveness-is-a-terrible-policy/925976/74 "2020-11-21T03:01:27Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Why is a handout to the middle class a better way to boost the economy than, say, giving $50k to everyone living below the poverty line? I’d bet there’s a component of return on investment involved there. If you forgive student debt, you generally are going to free up a lot of otherwise disposable income for people who presumably are making good money with their college-educated jobs. In other words, you pay 50k today, and you get some multiple of that back as spending over the time that they’d otherwise have paid that loan off. Or you end up with that money being saved and invested/used as home downpayments, etc… The assumption is that student loan debt is a sort of economic brake or anchor that is limiting their full economic participation as someone of their income level. Just giving the same one time 50k to people under the poverty line isn’t automatically going to result in the same long-term effects to society and the government. Sure, it’s better for the poor people, but is that also necessarily the most effective way to spend that money? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2020, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standalone-student-debt-forgiveness-is-a-terrible-policy/925976/75 "2020-11-21T03:16:25Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > It also means that those who did not borrow, but rather, saved and scrimped and worked to pay through college, now bore those sacrifices needlessly. On a similar note, I believe that all the R&D that has gone into creating the COVID-19 vaccine should be destroyed, as it wouldn’t be fair to the people who died before a vaccine was available. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2020, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standalone-student-debt-forgiveness-is-a-terrible-policy/925976/76 "2020-11-21T04:54:37Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > However, there appears to be a strategy by which student loans can be forgiven. Cite? I mean by Presidential fiat. ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2020, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standalone-student-debt-forgiveness-is-a-terrible-policy/925976/77 "2020-11-21T05:45:03Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > We. Can’t. Do. That. > > That’s what you seem to be missing. There is no way for Biden to, by executive order, give you extra money. However, there appears to be a strategy by which student loans can be forgiven. Per news articles I could find in circulation, the legal basis for “Biden can cancel student loans by executive order but can’t arrange other kinds of stimulus programs” seems to be: \*Chuck Schumer says this is the case but offers no legal reasons why he believes it to be so. \*Donald Trump made some executive orders about student debt and no one complained. \*Since student debt relief may have some degree of “bipartisan support” no one would object. There are also multiple bills regarding debt relief working their way through the House, which suggests that the legislature may in fact have some role to play here. So, other than just being something that’s made up to try to pursue the case for the debt relief goal, the notion is essentially an extension of the government by Presidential fiat that has been growing since the GWB administration and came too close to making Donald Trump a king. I think restoring the guardrails on American democracy so that Trump cannot happen again is about one billion times more important than making sure people with PhDs in grievance studies can afford to upgrade the sunroom this year. I do not support Biden doing ANYTHING by executive order other than ordering that the presidency start functioning according to its constitutional limits again. ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2020, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standalone-student-debt-forgiveness-is-a-terrible-policy/925976/78 "2020-11-21T05:48:25Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > On a similar note, I believe that all the R&D that has gone into creating the COVID-19 vaccine should be destroyed, as it wouldn’t be fair to the people who died before a vaccine was available. A more apt analogy would be: We’re going to distribute the vaccine ONLY to people who spent the last six months going to bars and yelling at Costco employees that they don’t have to wear masks. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2020, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standalone-student-debt-forgiveness-is-a-terrible-policy/925976/79 "2020-11-21T07:00:34Z")
> [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > I do not support Biden doing ANYTHING by executive order So you don’t support Biden doing anything, then, since the Republicans in the Senate have made it clear that they will block all legislation just for the sake of denying him any achievement. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2020, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standalone-student-debt-forgiveness-is-a-terrible-policy/925976/80 "2020-11-21T07:23:41Z")
It sets a terrible example. Taking out 6 figures for a degree not worth much is not really the fault of the general public. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standalone-student-debt-forgiveness-is-a-terrible-policy/925976.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standalone-student-debt-forgiveness-is-a-terrible-policy/925976.md?page=5)