# Standards of male beauty: what are they? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 14, 2013, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standards-of-male-beauty-what-are-they/650243 "2013-02-14T01:04:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standards-of-male-beauty-what-are-they/650243/21 "2013-02-14T05:52:41Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > **panache45** , you say such kind and loving things about your partner, he’s lucky to have you. > > **Senegold** , I admit that I prefer my man to be bigger and stronger than I am, but I’d never rule out a man just because he’s shorter than me. Though at 5’10", I’m pretty much invisible to any guy under 6 feet tall, so from my experience, **guys reject tall women** , too. Really? Seems like a stereotype that short guys want tall women. I’ve also found that on average women are hugely hypocritical in this area - most women have a minimum acceptable height for a man, but I’ve taken tons of flack over the years having a minimum height for women I’ll date (5’6"). ---
**Author:** ![stuyguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@stuyguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stuyguy)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standards-of-male-beauty-what-are-they/650243/22 "2013-02-14T05:55:10Z")
I am a very average looking middle-aged man. I have made a lifetime study – granted, only by observation – of the physical characteristics of the guys who attract the most and best-looking (“hottest”) women. There are two things that top the list, hands down: 1. decent height, and 2. good shoulders. Everybody knows about the height thing, so I don’t have to go into any more detail here. So, now for the shoulders. I have seen hundreds of examples of ugly guys, chubby guys, dumb guys, bald guys, boring guys, rude guys, and poor guys – but all with wide and/or muscular shoulders – dating the most attractive/desirable women. Since women rarely _explicitly_ mention good shoulders as a head-turning trait (like nice hair, good smile, strong jaw, muscular physique) I suspect the attraction is taking place on a deep, primal, subconscious level that is not always easy to pinpoint and explain. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standards-of-male-beauty-what-are-they/650243/23 "2013-02-14T06:04:25Z")
I’m another one who it’s about the personality for. I’ve dated shorter guys, younger guys, way skinny and largely overweight guys, guys that no one (including me) found attractive, and broke guys that weren’t the least bit upwardly mobile. As long as they are compassionate and funny (and not a smoker or a bigot), I’ll usually give them a second look. But, if I could build my dream guy, he’d have longish hair and be taller than me. Other than that, I can’t think of anything that would be a deal breaker that I’d run from. I like a smorgasbord. ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standards-of-male-beauty-what-are-they/650243/24 "2013-02-14T08:38:59Z")
I think women tend to be \*more \*specific than men about their physical type. Of course, that could just be my straight female self thinking that way. I mean, OBVIOUSLY there are beautiful women from light to dark, stick to curvy, etc., and that’s easy for me to be objective about because I’m not sexually attracted to any of them. Still though, I rarely meet a man who is just flat-out not attracted to a woman that is generally considered beautiful. Not so with me and with several other women I know. I can recognize attractiveness in men as much as I can recognize attractiveness in women, and there are a whole bunch of incredibly beautiful men and women that I just have no sexual interest in. Is that true of men having no interest in women who are largely accepted to be beautiful? I don’t know, but not as far as I know. ---
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standards-of-male-beauty-what-are-they/650243/25 "2013-02-14T09:14:44Z")
> [@Blackberry](#): > > Is that true of men having no interest in women who are largely accepted to be beautiful? I don’t know, but not as far as I know. It happens, but you tend to get shouted down by other guys (the net meme is pointy knees or elbows). My personal example is Angelina Jolie - everyone sees her as gorgeous, I see Jon Voight in drag. Overall, I’d say men and women both look for overall symmetry, low body fat, and pronounced secondary sexual characteristics, in general. Teen girls, though, seem drawn to more androgynous types with high voices - Justin Bieber, Prince, Michael Jackson, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standards-of-male-beauty-what-are-they/650243/26 "2013-02-14T09:41:15Z")
> [@epbrown01](#): > > It happens, but you tend to get shouted down by other guys (the net meme is pointy knees or elbows). My personal example is Angelina Jolie - everyone sees her as gorgeous, I see Jon Voight in drag. Okay, I could see thinking Angelina Jolie is not especially beautiful for a celebrity. But if she was just some random chick you worked with? Who somehow also managed to have her crew making her look like that every day for work? And then one day she’s like, “Hey **epbrown01** , what’s up for tonight?” You wouldn’t be interested? ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standards-of-male-beauty-what-are-they/650243/27 "2013-02-14T10:21:00Z")
Don’t look, test him. It’s either his money or his brute strength. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standards-of-male-beauty-what-are-they/650243/28 "2013-02-14T13:04:55Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > Don’t look, test him. It’s either his money or his brute strength. The money thing is such a consistent misconception that I’m going to knock it down now before it’s repeated again. Yes, ridiculously wealthy guys can attract the most desirable women, that’s a given. But unless a woman sees conspicuous displays of consumption, her initial attraction is probably based on his confidence and attitude. It’s no secret that financial security will give anyone, male or female, a level of comfort and a sense of competence and independence. These are appealing traits. Poor guys who are happy with less and comfortable in their station can carry the same status if they have the right attitude. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standards-of-male-beauty-what-are-they/650243/29 "2013-02-14T13:14:38Z")
> [@epbrown01](#): > > Really? Seems like a stereotype that short guys want tall women. I’ve also found that on average women are hugely hypocritical in this area - most women have a minimum acceptable height for a man, but I’ve taken tons of flack over the years having a minimum height for women I’ll date (5’6"). As the tallest of my girlfriends, I can only speak from personal experience. From teens to 40, I’ve been tall, curvy enough, fit, and pretty enough. I get attention from men without dressing provocatively or trolling bars. But men my height and under don’t speak to me, and men a few inches shorter appear to be disappointed or disapproving of me. Doesn’t hurt my feelings or anything, I’ve just always known that taller men flirt and shorter guys kind of punch me and call me buddy. It’s been a frequent conversation with my tiny girlfriends shopping for four inch heels. “Men want tall, skinny girls; supermodels.” They may want them on paper, but in my experience men want to feel much bigger and stronger than their date and choose petite, rounded girls. They might notice me, but they choose petite women. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standards-of-male-beauty-what-are-they/650243/30 "2013-02-14T13:30:04Z")
> [@Blackberry](#): > > I think women tend to be \*more \*specific than men about their physical type. Of course, that could just be my straight female self thinking that way. I mean, OBVIOUSLY there are beautiful women from light to dark, stick to curvy, etc., and that’s easy for me to be objective about because I’m not sexually attracted to any of them. I haven’t seen this. I haven’t heard women reject or criticize men because of a singular perceived flaw, or demand perfection. Check out the Upton thread wherein men are rejecting one of those universally gorgeous women because her hips aren’t round enough. And my male friends are just as critical of real life women, too. I’ve never heard a woman say “Sure, he’s gorgeous, but those skinny legs just put me right off.” I think that most women are self-conscious and aware of their own flaws and thus are much more tolerant of flaws in others. I just can’t picture us willingly opening ourselves up to reciprocal criticism. I’m thinking that all the effort with makeup, hair, and fashion; all the weight placed on our appearance has turned us into a product to be evaluated. And I’m guilty, my hair is feminine, I wear a little makeup and sundresses all summer. I’m not on the market but am I marketing myself nonetheless and subjecting myself to critique? ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standards-of-male-beauty-what-are-they/650243/31 "2013-02-14T13:30:49Z")
> [@](#): > > Pluses, mostly in order : > > - Muscular definition > - Facial beauty (as defined by Hollywood – think Matt Damon or the leads on Supernatural) > - Muscular size > - Hairlessness > - Youth (younger than me, anyway, and I’m mid-forties) > - Humour > - Wit > - Curiosity As far as superficial characteristics, those work with me too, and I’m a straight woman. Granted, I think what someone considers muscular definition may be too much for some, too little for others. And personally, I think muscle definition (and to some extent hair or lack of hair) is a characteristic where men do it more other guys than for other gals. Or is a characteristic in men like curves or weight in females… Usually men say that some women change themselves into something that they think men will find attractive, but men say they don’t care so much for that trait. I think muscle definition is similar, in that men may go for “the bulkier, the better”, when for many women, that may not be the case/may not be the most important trait. At least, that’s what I think based on what the men around me mention (including my partners). I do like more slender or some muscle tone. I do not like bulging muscles. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standards-of-male-beauty-what-are-they/650243/32 "2013-02-14T13:33:08Z")
Also, it seems you’re confusing basic superficial physical attraction/fantasy lover with relationships and intimacy. Those comments about superficial appearance may be because they’re talking about a fantasy, vs their companion, their partner, who understands them, loves them, and makes them happy. Even if that person doesn’t necessarily fit the fantasy, the fact that person brings so much more than superficial characteristics makes a difference. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standards-of-male-beauty-what-are-they/650243/33 "2013-02-14T13:50:23Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > Also, it seems you’re confusing basic superficial physical attraction/fantasy lover with relationships and intimacy. Those comments about superficial appearance may be because they’re talking about a fantasy, vs their companion, their partner, who understands them, loves them, and makes them happy. Even if that person doesn’t necessarily fit the fantasy, the fact that person brings so much more than superficial characteristics makes a difference. I think you are right, this is what I’m getting wrong. I think the chances that any of the critical guys would reject a real life Kate Upton are pretty slim. But maybe they’ll reject a photo of Kate Upton in favor of a photo of Hendricks before heading off to fantasy girlfriend camp AKA the bathroom. ---
**Author:** ![mo50](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@mo50](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mo50)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standards-of-male-beauty-what-are-they/650243/34 "2013-02-14T15:21:59Z")
FWIW, the James Spader line from the movie Sex, Lies, and Videotape “Men learn to love the women they’re attracted to. Women learn to be attracted to the men they love.” makes some sense to me, not in all cases of course. The one exception seems to be height. Generally, to me at least, it seems most women prefer a man who’s taller, unless he’s rich/powerful. Troppus, I’d suggest the shorter guys don’t approach you more because they figure they have no chance, not because they aren’t attracted. Just a guess, though. And I’m certainly being subjective, since I strongly prefer a taller woman. ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standards-of-male-beauty-what-are-they/650243/35 "2013-02-14T15:29:49Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > I think you are right, this is what I’m getting wrong. I think the chances that any of the critical guys would reject a real life Kate Upton are pretty slim. But maybe they’ll reject a photo of Kate Upton in favor of a photo of Hendricks before heading off to fantasy girlfriend camp AKA the bathroom. Yeah, I think that’s what I’m saying. Men may pick a woman apart piece by piece for “fun”, but when it comes down to it, what man is going to turn down a conventionally beautiful woman just because he and his buddies in the locker room decided her hips are too wide or narrow or whatever? And I don’t think women usually pick men apart like that, but I mean we can reject the whole package even while knowing the man is conventionally attractive. I might just be being sexist and maybe men aren’t interested in women who are beautiful but just not their type too, but I haven’t seen it much. If I hear a man say he doesn’t find [beautiful female celebrity] attractive, I think “yeah right, you’d do her in a second” and if a woman says she doesn’t find [handsome male celebrity] attractive, I think “yeah, me neither” or at least, “makes sense”. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standards-of-male-beauty-what-are-they/650243/36 "2013-02-14T15:54:48Z")
Well, ladies, I could just post a picture of myself… [sub]But somebody had to go there[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Altivu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a8b319/32.png) [@Altivu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Altivu)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standards-of-male-beauty-what-are-they/650243/37 "2013-02-14T16:15:18Z")
Bleh. Late response, but I didn’t realize that my link didn’t go directly to the page I was referencing. Go to “Mask Applications” \> “Face Variations” \> “Face Variations by Sex” THEN scroll to Part C. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standards-of-male-beauty-what-are-they/650243/38 "2013-02-14T16:33:34Z")
> [@mo50](#): > > FWIW, the James Spader line from the movie Sex, Lies, and Videotape “Men learn to love the women they’re attracted to. Women learn to be attracted to the men they love.” makes some sense to me, not in all cases of course. The one exception seems to be height. Generally, to me at least, it seems most women prefer a man who’s taller, unless he’s rich/powerful. > Troppus, I’d suggest the shorter guys don’t approach you more because they figure they have no chance, not because they aren’t attracted. Just a guess, though. And I’m certainly being subjective, since I strongly prefer a taller woman. There’s one other exception I haven’t seen anyone else mention. Weight. It’s not as constant as height, but it does seem to be a big deal to women that a guy not be too much more overweight than them. I’ve heard it’s even more important to gay men (with there being a difference between “straight skinny” and “gay skinny”), but I don’t know if that’s real or just something I got from _Will and Grace_. With “average” weight women, at least, only being frat-boy-style overweight or less seems to be acceptable. I know that my old girlfriend was often called a chubby chaser for her preference for bigger guys. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standards-of-male-beauty-what-are-they/650243/39 "2013-02-14T18:43:26Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > The money thing is such a consistent misconception that I’m going to knock it down now before it’s repeated again. Yes, ridiculously wealthy guys can attract the most desirable women, that’s a given. But unless a woman sees conspicuous displays of consumption, her initial attraction is probably based on his confidence and attitude. It’s no secret that financial security will give anyone, male or female, a level of comfort and a sense of competence and independence. These are appealing traits. Poor guys who are happy with less and comfortable in their station can carry the same status if they have the right attitude. OK, now that you’ve “knock[ed] it down”, I suppose it can be repeated again. The female attraction to money is similar to the female attraction to physical strength (e.g. the muscular arms and shoulders that others have mentioned upthread). Many women appreciate a man who can “protect” or “take care of” them. Physical strength is one aspect of taking care of them. Providing is another. This doesn’t mean that such women are gold-diggers, to the extent that gold-diggers is commonly understood to mean marrying a man to whom she is not attracted, for his money. What it means is that a man having money is itself an attractive quality for many women. [Of course, this does not apply to all women. YMMV.] ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standards-of-male-beauty-what-are-they/650243/40 "2013-02-14T19:21:22Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > With “average” weight women, at least, only being frat-boy-style overweight or less seems to be acceptable. I know that my old girlfriend was often called a chubby chaser for her preference for bigger guys. Well, **BigT** , we’ve got to consider those hulks climbing on top of us, so… But since my girlfriends and I turned 30 or so, even the most active of us found ourselves settled with men who are sporting a few extra pounds. Seems that guys lose interest at staying in shape once they are in a long term relationship. For me, I’m not _un_attracted to big guys so long as they appear strong and healthy. I can’t see myself with someone who spends hours on the couch or on the computer, so the shape he appears to be in matters much more than his actual weight. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standards-of-male-beauty-what-are-they/650243.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standards-of-male-beauty-what-are-they/650243.md?page=3)