# Standing Up to Persecution...Is It Courageous or Is It Fear. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 23, 2012, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929 "2012-12-23T16:26:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929/21 "2012-12-23T17:47:44Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Historically, some of our most logical and gifted men have been religious. We are talking about a lineage that extends back to St. Augustine to Einstein. Most of the ministers and pastors I know are logical and gifted people. Prior to the modern age, almost all were. But just to be clear, Einstein wasn’t religious. The whole “God does not play dice with the universe” thing is taken out of context. He was not arguing the existence of God. It was not meant to be literal. > [@Der Trihs](#): > > You are ignoring my point that it doesn’t take any such knowledge. Prove it. > [@](#): > > Because they were irrational. Because religious believers are always irrational. I think you are confusing humans with vulcans. ---
**Author:** ![feppytweed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/feppytweed/32/4280_2.png) [@feppytweed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/feppytweed)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929/22 "2012-12-23T17:52:09Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I think you are confusing humans with vulcans. It doesn’t take Spock to realize something is obviously irrational. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929/23 "2012-12-23T17:55:55Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Yes. It’s at least as silly as an adult believing in Santa Claus. I hate to shatter the illusions of all you adults, but Santa Claus is really real. It’s people people playing dress up and giving gifts. But it really happens and is undeniable. Yeah, a bunch of north pole and chimney yarns are spun, but I’ve actually seen and been Santa Claus. It is no less impossible for me to be Santa Claus than it is for Barack Obama to be a socialist President. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929/24 "2012-12-23T17:57:23Z")
**Der Trihs** , you’re hijacking the thread. This isn’t about the truthfulness or falsity or Christianity, it’s about persecution, bravery, and religious faith. If you want to post some more about how all religions are obvious lies, start a new thread or find one where that has something to do with the topic. I’ll thank other posters to let this tangent drop. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929/25 "2012-12-23T17:58:16Z")
> [@feppytweed](#): > > It doesn’t take Spock to realize something is obviously irrational. But it’s a logical fallacy to assume that humans act rationally all of the time or even most of the time. I see no evidence that your average Joe even today, much less 400 years ago, looked at religion with a rational eye. Nor that they had the skills to do so. ---
**Author:** ![feppytweed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/feppytweed/32/4280_2.png) [@feppytweed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/feppytweed)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929/26 "2012-12-23T18:01:00Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > I hate to shatter the illusions of all you adults, but Santa Claus is really real. It’s people people playing dress up and giving gifts. But it really happens and is undeniable. Yeah, a bunch of north pole and chimney yarns are spun, but I’ve actually seen and been Santa Claus. It is no less impossible for me to be Santa Claus than it is for Barack Obama to be a socialist President. That’s like saying that God is real because people are altruistic. The biggest thing to the Santa Claus story is that there is actually a guy who makes that trip. Reindeer, North Pole, and everything. **That’s** Santa. Anything else is just people feeling charitable and wanting those warm fuzzies for Christmas. The fact that people may be generous, charitable people because of their religion is nice and all, but the main hook of God existing is the fact there is actually some big guy in the sky who gives out miracles and sends people to heaven. It’s a great story, but that’s all it is. ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929/27 "2012-12-23T18:03:02Z")
> [@feppytweed](#): > > Exactly. It’s about hope. Hope that there will be a place without cancer, a place where you can see grandpa again… all of that. Seems too good to be true! All I have to do is believe in God? Sure! Anything to be able to be in paradise for eternity! > > But wait… my choices are between paradise or eternal suffering? That makes my choice even easier! So these Japanese Christians were logical, rational, and courageous? ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929/28 "2012-12-23T18:03:06Z")
One sort of wishes the thread was about standing up to persecution _in general._ Leave religion out of it - maybe even leave the threat of death or physical harm out of it. Sometimes it’s courageous to resist people who are harassing you or abusing you. When might it _not_ be? When might it be braver to keep in there taking the hits? ---
**Author:** ![feppytweed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/feppytweed/32/4280_2.png) [@feppytweed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/feppytweed)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929/29 "2012-12-23T18:08:50Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But it’s a logical fallacy to assume that humans act rationally all of the time or even most of the time. I see no evidence that your average Joe even today, much less 400 years ago, looked at religion with a rational eye. Nor that they had the skills to do so. I completely agree. I don’t believe they lacked the skills to objectively evaluate the legitimacy of religion, though. I would imagine that most of it was a combination of hope and following others. Which is what makes persecution understandable. The group mentality makes it easier, fear of going to hell (or being ostracized by their believer peers) makes it almost preferable, and then the practical martyr worship of many religions almost makes persecution attractive. Here’s how strong my faith is! I admit, it is admirable to believe in something to that extent; Der Trihs and I (among other people) just think that such conviction is slightly misplaced. ---
**Author:** ![feppytweed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/feppytweed/32/4280_2.png) [@feppytweed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/feppytweed)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929/30 "2012-12-23T18:10:42Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > So these Japanese Christians were logical, rational, and courageous? Based on what they believed, yes. If I KNEW that I would be going to paradise, why wouldn’t I welcome persecution (or at least not fear it)? ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929/31 "2012-12-23T18:17:35Z")
BTW, if removing religion or threat of death would disqualify the issue as a Great Debate, feel free to ignore my [post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15826616&postcount=28). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929/32 "2012-12-23T19:28:18Z")
> [@feppytweed](#): > > That’s like saying that God is real because people are altruistic. The biggest thing to the Santa Claus story is that there is actually a guy who makes that trip. Reindeer, North Pole, and everything. **That’s** Santa. Anything else is just people feeling charitable and wanting those warm fuzzies for Christmas. > > The fact that people may be generous, charitable people because of their religion is nice and all, but the main hook of God existing is the fact there is actually some big guy in the sky who gives out miracles and sends people to heaven. It’s a great story, but that’s all it is. No, it’s like saying God is real because God is love and love is real. Not everything people say about God or Santa Claus is correct. Santa Claus obviously does not live at the North Pole, there is only ice pack there. But you can go see him at the mall, and sign your gifts as being from Santa Claus and have a great time. “1” exists. You can show me one item, but it is not the Platonic form of “1”. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929/33 "2012-12-23T19:32:29Z")
Only fools are fearless. Courage is the mastery of fear, not its absence. ---
**Author:** ![feppytweed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/feppytweed/32/4280_2.png) [@feppytweed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/feppytweed)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929/34 "2012-12-23T19:42:01Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > No, it’s like saying God is real because God is love and love is real. Assuming that God is love, and love is real, that still doesn’t make God real because God is defined as more than a personification of love. ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929/35 "2012-12-23T20:31:10Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Only fools are fearless. Courage is the mastery of fear, not its absence. Well then, isn’t that what these Japanese did…they mastered fear. Here’s the irony of what occurred. The Japanese that recanted made martyrs out of those that sacrificed their lives. The movement went underground and 50-75 years later came back stronger than ever. If everybody had recanted, it’s possible that Christianity in Japan might have completely died. Does subsequent history make any difference in evaluating the actions of those that died? ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929/36 "2012-12-24T14:14:37Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > You are ignoring my point that it doesn’t take any such knowledge. > > Because they were irrational. Because religious believers are always irrational. Perhaps, because I am religious, I look at the World differently. The words logical and rational have different meanings to me. Something is logical only because most people believe it to be true. Something is rational if fewer people believe it to be true. If there are few people that believe something is true then it is irrational. Before Christopher Columbus, people believed the World was flat so that was logical. After Columbus demonstrated the World was round, it became logical that the world was round. In this day and age if you believed the World was flat it would be irrational. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929/37 "2012-12-24T15:27:15Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Let’s assume that the Japanese-Christians were logical. Is there anybody that is willing to say that their act of defiance was courageous. I would. There’s physical courage, courage in the face of physical pain and the threat of death. Then, there’s moral courage, the courage to take moral actions in the face of adverse consequences. The Japanese Christian incident includes both elements. Faced with the choice between death and ANY alternative, most would choose the alternative. These people did not, thus displaying great physical courage. The motivation was faith in what they believed in, a refusal to do the wrong thing (for them, recanting their beliefs). Thus, moral courage. Whether their beliefs were truthful or not is rather beside the point. > [@pchaos](#): > > Something is logical only because most people believe it to be true. Something is rational if fewer people believe it to be true. If there are few people that believe something is true then it is irrational. > > Before Christopher Columbus, people believed the World was flat so that was logical. After Columbus demonstrated the World was round, it became logical that the world was round. In this day and age if you believed the World was flat it would be irrational. This is that pre-science thinking that John Mace mentioned. I don’t think your opinions, as stated above, are compatible with a scientific worldview. You are willfully choosing religion over science, which is your prerogative, but doesn’t negate the actual meaning of “logic” and “rationality”. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929/38 "2012-12-24T15:42:59Z")
Courage. Faced with the fear of possible visits to hell, and the fear of certain drowning, it’s likely that the latter would be a much stronger motivating factor. ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929/39 "2012-12-24T16:01:14Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Courage. Faced with the fear of possible visits to hell, and the fear of certain drowning, it’s likely that the latter would be a much stronger motivating factor. John Paul Jones said…I regret that I have but one life to give to my country. Is it possible that these Christians believed in their religion as much as their country. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929/40 "2012-12-24T16:36:48Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > John Paul Jones said…I regret that I have but one life to give to my country. Is it possible that these Christians believed in their religion as much as their country. It seems to me that they did, given that they were acting in defiance of their country’s government and social norms. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929.md?page=3)