# Standing Up to Persecution...Is It Courageous or Is It Fear. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 23, 2012, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929 "2012-12-23T16:26:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929/41 "2012-12-24T18:18:33Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > John Paul Jones said…I regret that I have but one life to give to my country. Nathan Hale. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929/42 "2012-12-24T18:39:01Z")
I would have recanted and then unrecanted in private. Nothing in Christianity says I have to make it so blatant as to be dangerous. Secretly pretending to be not Christian while being Christian is ok when death is the alternative. I think god should understand ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929/43 "2012-12-24T18:54:45Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Obstinacy doesn’t require courage or fear. Some people never feel more right then when they’re told they’re wrong. But, how un-Japanese! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929/44 "2012-12-24T18:55:57Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Nathan Hale. No, no, Nathan Hale said, “You dirty rat!” ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929/45 "2012-12-25T18:08:11Z")
> [@feppytweed](#): > > I completely agree. I don’t believe they lacked the skills to objectively evaluate the legitimacy of religion, though. I would imagine that most of it was a combination of hope and following others. > > Which is what makes persecution understandable. The group mentality makes it easier, fear of going to hell (or being ostracized by their believer peers) makes it almost preferable, and then the practical martyr worship of many religions almost makes persecution attractive. Here’s how strong my faith is! I admit, it is admirable to believe in something to that extent; Der Trihs and I (among other people) just think that such conviction is slightly misplaced. Another possibility was the Shogunate (the rulers) saw the Shogun as the Son of God, however, he wasn’t a compassionate individual. He was a despot and prone to overtaxing even when the peasants were in the midst of a famine. The Christians could have been rebelling against this despot and favoring the more compassionate Jesus Christ. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929/46 "2012-12-26T02:58:02Z")
Ah, but [Santa Claus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Nicholas) is an actual person! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929/47 "2012-12-26T04:16:45Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Another possibility was the Shogunate (the rulers) saw the Shogun as the Son of God . . . No, that would have been the Emperor. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929/48 "2012-12-26T04:18:18Z")
> [@feppytweed](#): > > . . . and then the practical martyr worship of many religions . . . Actually, I think that applies only to the Abrahamic/Yahvist religions, and, for the most part, only to Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929/49 "2012-12-27T15:13:57Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Nathan Hale. How could I have made that mistake, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929/50 "2012-12-27T17:08:09Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It’s full of logical flaws and baseless assertions that ought to be obvious to some guy from the Stone Age, much less the 17th century. Science isn’t necessary. But it clearly was not obvious, since almost nobody then was an atheist. Had you been born then, you’d have been a believer, ever with the huge brain you have now. That’s just the way life is. ---
**Author:** ![FloatyGimpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/floatygimpy/32/7750_2.png) [@FloatyGimpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FloatyGimpy)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929/51 "2012-12-27T17:20:28Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I would have recanted and then unrecanted in private. Nothing in Christianity says I have to make it so blatant as to be dangerous. Secretly pretending to be not Christian while being Christian is ok when death is the alternative. I think god should understand Matthew 10:33: But whoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929/52 "2012-12-27T19:04:23Z")
> [@FloatyGimpy](#): > > Matthew 10:33: > > But whoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. Those poor, ignorant Japanese peasants were lied to by the Christian missionaries, who’s only goal was to expand the power of Christianity, so they found themselves between a rock and hard place. Recant and go to hell or die. Those peasants paid the price and Christianity had some new martyrs to tote around. A win-win for the church, a big loss for the suckers who trusted them. This is the tragedy of Christianity in my opinion, no lie is too despicable if it brings in more converts. To answer the OP, can’t they be both brave and fearful? They must have believed in life after death, so were faithful, but surely they were afraid too. ---
**Author:** ![FloatyGimpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/floatygimpy/32/7750_2.png) [@FloatyGimpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FloatyGimpy)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929/53 "2012-12-27T19:12:18Z")
> [@shiftless](#): > > Those poor, ignorant Japanese peasants were lied to by the Christian missionaries, who’s only goal was to expand the power of Christianity, so they found themselves between a rock and hard place. Recant and go to hell or die. Those peasants paid the price and Christianity had some new martyrs to tote around. A win-win for the church, a big loss for the suckers who trusted them. This is the tragedy of Christianity in my opinion, no lie is too despicable if it brings in more converts. > > To answer the OP, can’t they be both brave and fearful? They must have believed in life after death, so were faithful, but surely they were afraid too. Unfortunately guilt and fear are powerful motivators. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929/54 "2012-12-27T19:58:02Z")
> [@shiftless](#): > > Those poor, ignorant Japanese peasants were lied to by the Christian missionaries, who’s only goal was to expand the power of Christianity, so they found themselves between a rock and hard place. Recant and go to hell or die. Those peasants paid the price and Christianity had some new martyrs to tote around. A win-win for the church, a big loss for the suckers who trusted them. This is the tragedy of Christianity in my opinion, no lie is too despicable if it brings in more converts. > > To answer the OP, can’t they be both brave and fearful? They must have believed in life after death, so were faithful, but surely they were afraid too. The missionaries were acting in good faith, trying to spread what they saw as man’s only path to salvation and life eternal. No one was lying here. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929/55 "2012-12-27T20:20:42Z")
> [@shiftless](#): > > Those poor, ignorant Japanese peasants were lied to by the Christian missionaries, who’s only goal was to expand the power of Christianity, so they found themselves between a rock and hard place. Recant and go to hell or die. Those peasants paid the price and Christianity had some new martyrs to tote around. A win-win for the church, a big loss for the suckers who trusted them. This is the tragedy of Christianity in my opinion, no lie is too despicable if it brings in more converts. > > To answer the OP, can’t they be both brave and fearful? They must have believed in life after death, so were faithful, but surely they were afraid too. It’s only a “lie” if one knows the statement is false. We certainly don’t classify the mugging victim who accidentally picks the wrong suspect out of a police lineup of being a “liar.” ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929/56 "2012-12-27T20:26:46Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > But it clearly was not obvious, since almost nobody then was an atheist. How would you know? Admitting to be an atheist for most of history would get you killed. > [@RickJay](#): > > Had you been born then, you’d have been a believer, ever with the huge brain you have now. I’ve never said it took a “huge brain”. And religiosity appears to have a fairly powerful genetic component; it’s quite possible I would have been an atheist in any era. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929/57 "2012-12-27T21:00:29Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > How would you know? Admitting to be an atheist for most of history would get you killed.. And that is exactly why I would merrily have done hail marys, our fathers, recanted whatever whichever ruler wanted me to recant and scurried off thrilled to be still alive. I don’t care who believes what, I just want to be left the flying fuck alone. I have no problem burning incense to Caesar, kneeling in some dirt floored church, bowing to some shinto shrine. What I do on the outside has nothing to do with what I believe inside. That is the _smart_ thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929/58 "2012-12-27T23:14:25Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I’ve never said it took a “huge brain”. And religiosity appears to have a fairly powerful genetic component; it’s quite possible I would have been an atheist in any era. It’s possible you could have been Batman, too. It is, however, exceedingly unlikely. Prior to the arrival of the Enlightenment - which came to different places at different times - very, very few people were atheists. You can handwave that away as “well they were afraid to admit it” but it’s the overwhelmingly obvious conclusion based on the available evidence. So it’s kind of ridiculous to claim that a religious person in that era must have been stupid or insane, since it is not, and has never been, true that the majority of people are stupid and/or insane. Saying that the silliness of religion “should have been obvious to someone from the Stone Age” betrays a lack of understanding of the history of human knowledge that is truly staggering - or perhaps an unwillingness to admit the truth, I’m not sure. Clearly, it wasn’t obvious, or else people wouldn’t have bought it. Religion would never have become as remarkably popular and persistent as it is. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929/59 "2012-12-27T23:33:24Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > So it’s kind of ridiculous to claim that a religious person in that era must have been stupid or insane, since it is not, and has never been, true that the majority of people are stupid and/or insane. Only if you go by the theory that the majority is automatically sane. Humans are not as a species rational. ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929/60 "2012-12-28T00:09:56Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Only if you go by the theory that the majority is automatically sane. Humans are not as a species rational. It’s better to avoid the word “sane.” I would say instead, the opinion of the vast majority has always been considered logical. So since the vast majority of people in those times believed in some type of God, these Japanese Christians were logical. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929.md?page=4)