# Standing Up to Persecution...Is It Courageous or Is It Fear. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 23, 2012, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929 "2012-12-23T16:26:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929/61 "2012-12-28T01:37:43Z")
I’m not sure why this thread has turned into another rather tedious argument as to whether or not people who believe that “religious people”(however one defines that) are stupid or illogical. It ignores the fact that virtually everyone has some beliefs that would be perceived as “stupid”, “irrational” or “illogical”. In fact, I’ve heard many on this board who love to talk about how “stupid” religious people are, express highly irrational views that are at least as illogical as beliefs in the God of Abraham. Beyond that, it takes rather extreme arrogance for someone to honestly believe that had they been born in the medieval era they wouldn’t have been believers in God. Finally, I’m wondering why the Japanese who believed in God are viewed as “suckers”. What does that make the Japanese who believed in the Kami, reincarnation or any of the traditional Japanese religions. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929/62 "2012-12-28T15:57:23Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Only if you go by the theory that the majority is automatically sane. Humans are not as a species rational. You are now redefining words solely to try to make reality conform to your ideology. You’re beginning to sound like a Republican. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929/63 "2012-12-28T21:08:11Z")
> [@FloatyGimpy](#): > > Matthew 10:33: > > But whoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. It was a fake denial though! I had my fingers crossed the whole time! ---
**Author:** ![MybackPacksGotJets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/278dde/32.png) [@MybackPacksGotJets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MybackPacksGotJets)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2012, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929/64 "2012-12-29T05:19:42Z")
> [@shiftless](#): > > Those poor, ignorant Japanese peasants were lied to by the Christian missionaries, who’s only goal was to expand the power of Christianity, so they found themselves between a rock and hard place. Recant and go to hell or die. Those peasants paid the price and Christianity had some new martyrs to tote around. A win-win for the church, a big loss for the suckers who trusted them. This is the tragedy of Christianity in my opinion, no lie is too despicable if it brings in more converts. > > To answer the OP, can’t they be both brave and fearful? They must have believed in life after death, so were faithful, but surely they were afraid too. Missionaries have often been used as a tool of divide and conquer by govts., as well as a method of getting a military foot in the door. It’s not just a case of the church wanting power. The way it works is you send missionaries, but these missionaries are just poor defenseless men of God.. so we better send soldiers over to protect them. ---
**Author:** ![MybackPacksGotJets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/278dde/32.png) [@MybackPacksGotJets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MybackPacksGotJets)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2012, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929/65 "2012-12-29T05:38:55Z")
> [@shiftless](#): > > Those poor, ignorant Japanese peasants were lied to by the Christian missionaries, who’s only goal was to expand the power of Christianity, so they found themselves between a rock and hard place. Recant and go to hell or die. Those peasants paid the price and Christianity had some new martyrs to tote around. A win-win for the church, a big loss for the suckers who trusted them. This is the tragedy of Christianity in my opinion, no lie is too despicable if it brings in more converts. > > To answer the OP, can’t they be both brave and fearful? They must have believed in life after death, so were faithful, but surely they were afraid too. Missionaries have often been used as a tool of divide and conquer by govts., as well as a method of getting a military foot in the door. It’s not just a case of the church wanting power. The way it works is you send missionaries, but these missionaries are just poor defenseless men of God.. so we better send soldiers over to protect them. Either that or send in missionaries undefended, wait til they are harmed and then use this as an excuse it invade. In 1561, Gonçalo da Silveira, a Portuguese Jesuit missionary managed to make his way into the Mwenemutapa’s court and convert him to Christianity.[3] This did not go well with the Muslim merchants in the capital, and they persuaded the king to kill the Jesuit only a few days after the former’s baptism. This was all the excuse the Portuguese needed to penetrate the interior and take control of the gold mines and ivory routes. After a lengthy preparation, an expedition of 1,000 men under Francisco Barreto was launched in 1568. They managed to get as far as the upper Zambezi, but local disease decimated the force. The Portuguese returned to their base in 1572 and took their frustrations out on the Swahili traders, whom they massacred. They replaced them with Portuguese and their half-African progeny who became prazeiros (estate holders) of the lower Zambezi. > **[Mutapa Empire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Mutapa#The_Accidental_Crusade)** > > The Mutapa Empire – sometimes referred to as Mwenemutapa or Munhumutapa, (Shona: Mwene we Mutapa, Portuguese: Monomotapa) – was an African empire in Zimbabwe, which expanded to what is now modern-day Mozambique, Botswana, Malawi, and Zambia. It was ruled by the Nembire or Mbire dynasty. The Portuguese term Monomotapa is a transliteration of the Shona royal title Mwenemutapa derived from a combination of two words, Mwene meaning "Lord" and Mutapa meaning "conquered land". Over time the monarch... In the 19th century, the local persecutions of missionary priests of the Paris Foreign Missions Society was often a pretext for French military intervention in Asia.[4] In Vietnam, the persecutions were used by the French government to justify the armed interventions of Jean-Baptiste Cécille and Rigault de Genouilly. In China, the murder of Father Auguste Chapdelaine became the casus belli for the French involvement in the Second Opium War in 1856. In Korea, persecutions were used to justify the 1866 French campaign against Korea. > **[Paris Foreign Missions Society](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Foreign_Missions_Society)** > > The Society of Foreign Missions of Paris (French: Société des Missions Etrangères de Paris, .mw-parser-output .IPA-label-small{font-size:85%}.mw-parser-output .references .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .infobox .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .navbox .IPA-label-small{font-size:100%}pronounced \[sɔsjete de misjɔ̃ etʁɑ̃ʒɛʁ də paʁi\], MEP) is a Catholic missionary organization. It is not a religious institute, but an organization of secular priests and lay persons dedicated to missionary work... besides that I agree with your last sentence. ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2012, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929/66 "2012-12-29T15:14:16Z")
> [@MybackPacksGotJets](#): > > Missionaries have often been used as a tool of divide and conquer by govts., as well as a method of getting a military foot in the door. It’s not just a case of the church wanting power. > > The way it works is you send missionaries, but these missionaries are just poor defenseless men of God.. so we better send soldiers over to protect them. I agree. This thread has drifted off into a lot of tangents. Many of these sub-topics are interesting, but let’s stay away from power-hungry churches and governments. One sub-topic that’s worth exploring is these people were Japanese. As we know Japanese place a high value on conformity. I’m wondering how much of their bravery was based on their desire to remain loyal to the basic tenets of the Church. Any thoughts on this? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/standing-up-to-persecution-is-it-courageous-or-is-it-fear/644929.md?page=3)