# Stanley cup winner snubs President for political reasons **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 24, 2012, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stanley-cup-winner-snubs-president-for-political-reasons/610460 "2012-01-24T02:14:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stanley-cup-winner-snubs-president-for-political-reasons/610460/181 "2012-01-27T17:29:35Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Yes. > Obama is a candidate for President in 2012. Therefore it is a political event. > > Regards, > Shodan So every event a president attends in an election year is a political event? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stanley-cup-winner-snubs-president-for-political-reasons/610460/182 "2012-01-27T17:36:05Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I don’t see why not. Because human psychology works that way, and not another. It’s like saying you don’t see why people couldn’t only be patriots on Tuesdays, and not give two shits about their country the rest of the week. Either you consider the team to be more important than yourself, or you don’t. I don’t really see what’s so gosh durn difficult to understand here. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stanley-cup-winner-snubs-president-for-political-reasons/610460/183 "2012-01-27T17:44:29Z")
> [@mnemosyne](#): > > **Shodan** - do you think it would have been better if Thomas had issued a statement a day or two ahead of time, explaining why he wasn’t going (even more or less the same statement?). > > I think the star of the team during the Cup run shouldn’t have waited for his absence to be noticed before making his statement. He should have had the class\* to step back at a time when it _could_ be about him (a day or two before), so that the rest of the team could enjoy the moment themselves if they so wanted. Sorry, this doesn’t make sense to me. If he’d made a statement ahead of time, it would have been portrayed as calling attention to himself and detracting from the upcoming event. There would have been undue attention focused on Thomas by the press corps and the ceremony would have been subordinated (by the media at least) into a squabble between Obama and Thomas. I don’t think Thomas is some kind of hero. He does have the right (unless it says otherwise in his contract) not to glad-hand the President because of political differences. If he’d shown up at the ceremony and unfurled a banner reading “Down With Big Government - Obama Sucks” _that_ would have been jerkish. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stanley-cup-winner-snubs-president-for-political-reasons/610460/184 "2012-01-27T17:55:46Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I haven’t seen his contract, but I doubt it is as clear as saying he is obligated to do everything the team owners tell him, off the ice. Oh, certainly not–but there’s a likely middle ground (and borne out by the examples posted upthread) in which he is required to treat scheduled PR events as he would any other work day and show up barring illness or other acceptable excuse. > [@](#): > > Even if it does, in a small way it is like other forms of civil disobedience. You make a statement by your actions, and accept the consequence. I couldn’t agree more. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stanley-cup-winner-snubs-president-for-political-reasons/610460/185 "2012-01-27T17:56:33Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > So every event a president attends in an election year is a political event? Not just during an election year. The Presidency is a political office. To some extent, everything he does in public, and a good deal of the rest, is political. > [@Kobal2](#): > > Because human psychology works that way, and not another. No, I don’t think you are correct. > [@](#): > > It’s like saying you don’t see why people couldn’t only be patriots on Tuesdays, and not give two shits about their country the rest of the week. We are not talking about different times of the week, we are talking about different circumstances. > [@](#): > > Either you consider the team to be more important than yourself, or you don’t. I don’t really see what’s so gosh durn difficult to understand here. It’s not difficult to understand; it’s just wrong. “Team spirit” does not mean that Thomas has to subsume his every opinion and belief and do exactly as he is told every second of his life. He is still a citizen, with every right in the world to protest Obama and his policies if he chooses. And that includes not showing up for a photo op, if he is willing to pay the (admittedly minimal) costs of doing so. He isn’t obligated to sign every autograph he is asked for, either. > [@DianaG](#): > > ``` > So you decided not to take that Pit advice to heart after all, huh? > > ``` That’s all your post was worth. And FTR I will note you ignored all my longer posts in favor of the short one. _:shrugs:_ I can take reasonable posters like **xtisme** and **furt** and so on seriously when they have something to say. Others? Not so much. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stanley-cup-winner-snubs-president-for-political-reasons/610460/186 "2012-01-27T18:01:10Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Not just during an election year. The Presidency is a political office. To some extent, everything he does in public, and a good deal of the rest, is political. While the Presidency may be a political office, it’s fairly easy to separate the actions that the President takes into those that are political vs. those that are related to his position as head of state. Entertaining visiting athletic champions is clearly the latter. Any visitors not specifically and expressly selected, for that matter–whether it’s the Boy Scout troop with perfect attendance or what. In any of these cases, the President is ceremonially functioning as the personification of the United States, not as himself as an individual nor as himself as the holder of a specific limited office in our governmental system. One can believe, as I do, that one of the few mistakes the Founding Fathers made was to have the “Head of State” powers be vested in the presidency rather than in an appointed ambassador-like bureaucratic position–but that doesn’t change the fact of the matter. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stanley-cup-winner-snubs-president-for-political-reasons/610460/187 "2012-01-27T18:05:06Z")
As mentioned, I don’t think you can draw a bright line like that. He is still the President while he is being the head of state, and whatever political advantage accrues with it. Like I said, it’s one of the advantages of incumbency. You get your name in the paper and your picture on TV without spending a dime in campaign contributions, and in a positive light to boot. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stanley-cup-winner-snubs-president-for-political-reasons/610460/188 "2012-01-27T18:16:07Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Sorry, this doesn’t make sense to me. If he’d made a statement ahead of time, it would have been portrayed as calling attention to himself and detracting from the upcoming event. There would have been undue attention focused on Thomas by the press corps and the ceremony would have been subordinated (by the media at least) into a squabble between Obama and Thomas. Perhaps - but doing so a day or two ahead of time allows the media shitstorm to pass and it becomes old news by the time the event rolls around. His absence would be noted at the time, for sure, but rather than players having to come up with on-the-spot answers to “what the hell, where’s the goalie, why isn’t he here?”, they get to say a canned “he’s stated his reasons. I’m glad to be here, yay us for winning”. It’s kind of like this All-Star weekend. Ovechkin backed out a couple of days ago - and it was hashed out all over the news at the time but now no one much cares. It would _still_ be a political discussion - Obama vs Thomas - but I think it would be less about how much of a jackass he was to his team mates and more about how/whether justified or retarded his reasons are. At least, it would be for me. As I said, it’s not _what_ he did, it’s _how he did it_ that rubs me the wrong way. You can do a lot of things in this world that will upset people and you can’t really avoid that - but you can choose to be a dick while doing it, or not. Thomas is a dick. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stanley-cup-winner-snubs-president-for-political-reasons/610460/189 "2012-01-27T20:33:15Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > As mentioned, I don’t think you can draw a bright line like that. He is still the President while he is being the head of state, and whatever political advantage accrues with it. People can agree or disagree with this. Personally, I think this is the most fundamental way one can legitimately “respect the office of the Presidency” as we’ve heard so often in the last decade from all sides: treat the ceremonial head of state duties as just that. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stanley-cup-winner-snubs-president-for-political-reasons/610460/190 "2012-01-27T21:20:58Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > On the ice, sure. Off the ice, as long as it doesn’t affect play, I don’t see how it is any of their business. > By being associated with winning sports figures. It is one of the perks associated with being an incumbent President. > > It’s the same reason that commercial products hire sports figures as spokesmen. They want to associate their product with someone popular and successful. > > Thomas chose not to give Obama that opportunity, because (apparently) he disagrees with Obama’s politics. That’s fine - Thomas is a citizen like everyone else, and owes no duty of service to Obama. > > Regards, > Shodan Wha? That’s absurd. No one in their right mind would associate the president with a winning sports team. It’s a PR move for the team. You win a championship, you visit the president, you get a parade, blah blah blah. It’s just a standard thing – the president meets with celebrities all the time, and no won would associate Obama with the Bruins. And notice you said it’s a perk of being the PRESIDENT. The office itself. It’s not about Obama. They’d go there no matter who was in office. > [@Shodan](#): > > I haven’t seen his contract, but I doubt it is as clear as saying he is obligated to do everything the team owners tell him, off the ice. Even if it does, in a small way it is like other forms of civil disobedience. You make a statement by your actions, and accept the consequence. The organization has stated that their employees ARE required to participate in any and all promotional events, if their employers insist. > [@](#): > > You are sort of making my point for me. Obama would certainly not have wanted to shake hands with an alleged rapist, because that implies that on some level they are associated, and that he approves of him and supports him. Politicians do want to meet and shake hands (in public) with sports figures (and other entertainers as well) who are not accused of crimes for the same reason - because of the implication that they approve of each other on some level. \ No, the point is that he would have done it anyways. And if you don’t think think someone’s behavior off the ice doesn’t effect team chemistry on it, I’ve got two words for you: Sean Avery. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stanley-cup-winner-snubs-president-for-political-reasons/610460/191 "2012-01-27T21:27:59Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I haven’t seen his contract > [@Muffin](#): > > An NHL Standard Player Contract will have terms setting out that the player will participate in promotion of his club and cooperate in the promotion of the League and professional hockey, and will conduct himself with the highest standards and refrain from conduct detrimental to his club, the League, or profesisonal hockey. Gettin’ tired of repeating this. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stanley-cup-winner-snubs-president-for-political-reasons/610460/192 "2012-01-27T21:38:18Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Wha? That’s absurd. No one in their right mind would associate the president with a winning sports team. As I said, it is the same reason companies hire sports figures as their commercial spokesmen. And also why Victoria’s Secret models tend not to be ugly. There is an anecdote I read some years back when Reagan was President. Some TV network was running a piece on how Reagan’s policies were hurting the elderly and so forth and so on. And part of the piece was stock footage of Reagan visiting an old folk’s home. After the piece aired, a Reagan staffer called the network to thank them for running the piece. And whoever took the call expressed surprise, given the negative tone of the piece. The staffer said that people cared more about what they saw, than what they heard. They saw Reagan in the old folk’s home, interacting with the residents and smiling and being charming like he always was, and (this is the key) they remembered that association better than the voice over that was slagging on Reagan. > [@](#): > > And notice you said it’s a perk of being the PRESIDENT. The office itself. It’s not about Obama. They’d go there no matter who was in office. Yes - like I said, it is a perk of incumbency. > [@](#): > > The organization has stated that their employees ARE required to participate in any and all promotional events, if their employers insist. So Thomas refuses, and pays a fine or something similar. > [@](#): > > And if you don’t think think someone’s behavior off the ice doesn’t effect team chemistry on it, I’ve got two words for you: Sean Avery. I am not a hockey fan, so I don’t know from Sean Avery, but Thomas’ teammates don’t seem too concerned about it. > [@](#): > > Thomas’ teammates say the incident isn’t going to affect them or their feelings for him, and Neely agrees. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stanley-cup-winner-snubs-president-for-political-reasons/610460/193 "2012-01-27T21:53:32Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Gettin’ tired of repeating this. Sorry if this was provided, but what are the terms? I’m not saying you’re wrong, but certainly this can’t mean that anything at all that is requested must be complied with. Is there something that unambiguously covers this type of circumstance? That would answer the question, “Was Thomas contractually obligated?” The answer to the question, “Should he have gone?” is entirely subjective otherwise. There is no right or wrong answer. IMO, he should have gone, because such events are supposed to be above politics. Same reason I disagree with Olympic boycotts. Going doesn’t mean you’re supportive of the host country. This could, of course, change, if circumstances are egregiously offensive enough. But under normal circumstances, just show up. Of course, that doesn’t mean at all that he had to (unless, of course, he is obligated contractually). ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stanley-cup-winner-snubs-president-for-political-reasons/610460/194 "2012-01-27T22:01:44Z")
If you’re not a hockey fan, then perhaps you shouldn’t be commenting on how contracts work in the NHL. Leave it to those of us who are more informed. [Sean Avery](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_Avery) Basically, his behavior when he played for the Dallas Stars made him persona non grata among his teammates. Marty Turco and Mike Modano were said to have absolutely loathed him. He was eventually traded after making [nasty comments](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_Avery#Controversial_.22sloppy_seconds.22_comment) about his ex-girlfriends. Even though it was off the ice, it still reflected poorly on the organization. No, I’m not comparing Thomas’s actions to making crude remarks about an ex-girlfriend. However, it’s a classic example of how a player’s behavior off the ice can have an effect on his chemistry with the rest of his team. Look, people are just pointing out that this visit is a tradition. You win the Super Bowl or the Stanley Cup, you visit the White House. I don’t know how long it’s been going on, but that’s just how it is. Pretending it’s a political endorsement is insane. (BTW, do they do the same for the World Series or the NBA championship?) ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stanley-cup-winner-snubs-president-for-political-reasons/610460/195 "2012-01-27T22:14:00Z")
Let’s forget about the Bruins a second. For the sake of argument, suppose an ordinary child’s kindergarten class was invited to the annual White House Easter Egg Hunt. The kid (who probably knows little or nothing about politics) is all excited! “I’m gonna meet the President! Yippee!” Now, I have absolutely no use for Barack Obama, but what kind of Dad would refuse to let his kid attend, because of disagreements with the President’s policies? No matter who the President is, it’s an honor to be invited to ceremonies like this, silly as they may be. If you REALLLY can’t smile, shake a few hands, and pose for a few pictures for an hour, fine… decline politely and say you have a previous family commitment or something. But why ruin a cool occasion for everybody else? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stanley-cup-winner-snubs-president-for-political-reasons/610460/196 "2012-01-27T22:32:07Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > No, I’m not comparing Thomas’s actions to making crude remarks about an ex-girlfriend. Actually, it sounds very much like you are. > [@](#): > > However, it’s a classic example of how a player’s behavior off the ice can have an effect on his chemistry with the rest of his team. Thomas’ teammates don’t seem to feel that it will. I assume they know more about the situation than either you or I. > [@](#): > > Look, people are just pointing out that this visit is a tradition. You win the Super Bowl or the Stanley Cup, you visit the White House. I don’t know how long it’s been going on, but that’s just how it is. Like I have said a couple of times, it is one of the perks of being an incumbent President - you get free, positive publicity. I am not saying this kind of thing constitutes a political endorsement. I am saying it is an opportunity to be photographed with a collection of popular celebrities, at the moment of their greatest triumph of their season. Thomas chose to deny that opportunity to Obama because he disagrees with Obama’s actions as President. It’s an invitation, not a Command Performance. Thomas may accept or refuse at his will, with or without a reason. If Thomas’ team chooses to sanction him for it, apparently Thomas is ready to accept that. His teammates apparently accept it without rancor. I don’t see the issue. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stanley-cup-winner-snubs-president-for-political-reasons/610460/197 "2012-01-27T22:41:23Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I am not saying this kind of thing constitutes a political endorsement. I am saying it is an opportunity to be photographed with a collection of popular celebrities, at the moment of their greatest triumph of their season. That is a fair point- ask John Lindsay, an extremely unpopular New York City mayor who rode the Miracle Mets’ 1969 World Series triumph to re-election. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stanley-cup-winner-snubs-president-for-political-reasons/610460/198 "2012-01-27T23:39:53Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Sorry if this was provided, but what are the terms? What I posted is from the relevant terms in the actual NHL Standard Player Contract. I paraphrased it by taking out extraneous crap, such a paragraph numbers. How one intreprets these terms makes for a good discussion. All NHL players sign the NHL Standard Player Contract. Anything beyond the standard contract is dealth with via addendums. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stanley-cup-winner-snubs-president-for-political-reasons/610460/199 "2012-01-28T01:58:44Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I am not saying this kind of thing constitutes a political endorsement. I am saying it is an opportunity to be photographed with a collection of popular celebrities, at the moment of their greatest triumph of their season. Thomas chose to deny that opportunity to Obama because he disagrees with Obama’s actions as President. Thomas said nothing about Obama himself. Again, this isn’t about OBAMA’s getting any perks or whatever. We’re not discussing that. We’re discussing the actions of TIM THOMAS. Do try and keep up. (Besides, if Obama gets “perks” from being seen with the winners of sports championships, how does that differ from every other president? Jesus.) And despite what you think, I’m not saying that Thomas’s actions are equal to Avery’s. Just that if a team doesn’t have a sense of comradery, or feel that another player is letting them down, that’s going to affect performance. Let me ask you this, **Shodan** , just curious – are you a sports fan at all? Because otherwise, I can’t understand how you don’t see how that wouldn’t have an effect on performance. People aren’t complaining that Thomas didn’t attend so much as how he acted about it. ---
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stanley-cup-winner-snubs-president-for-political-reasons/610460/200 "2012-01-28T02:00:13Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Sorry if this was provided, but what are the terms? I’m not saying you’re wrong, but certainly this can’t mean that anything at all that is requested must be complied with. Is there something that unambiguously covers this type of circumstance? That would answer the question, “Was Thomas contractually obligated?” From the AP story: > [@](#): > > Bruins GM Peter Chiarelli confirmed that Thomas had told him months ago he would not attend the White House event due to his political and ideological differences with the Obama administration. Chiarelli said he had tried to convince Thomas to attend the event “over the last couple months” to no avail. > > “He chose not to come. The reasons behind it I think he’ll make the media aware through his Facebook,” said Chiarelli. > > The GM said that he could have mandated Thomas attend the event, but chose not to. “I can require someone to attend a team event. If they don’t, I can suspend him. But I’m not going to suspend Tim. Whatever his position is isn’t representative of the Boston Bruins or my own. But I’m not going to suspend him.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stanley-cup-winner-snubs-president-for-political-reasons/610460.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stanley-cup-winner-snubs-president-for-political-reasons/610460.md?page=11)