# Stanley Kubrick's Napoleon **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 3, 2003, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stanley-kubricks-napoleon/199420 "2003-09-03T22:40:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Shiva418](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/77aa72/32.png) [@Shiva418](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shiva418)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stanley-kubricks-napoleon/199420/1 "2003-09-03T22:40:35Z")
I was speaking after class with my Philosophy of Film teacher, when he informed me of a completed script that the legendary Stanley Kubrick worked on throughout the better part of his life. The film was to be based on the life of Napoleon. [This](http://www.filmjerk.com/nuke/article116.html) page says that “the script, dated September 29, 1969, runs 148 pages.” Also, “at the script’s conclusion Kubrick has provided seven pages of detailed production notes.” More details can be gotten from the article. Now, we are left with several BIG questions: 1). Who would play the pivotal role of Napoleon, 2). Who would be cast as his wife, Josephine, and finally 3). What director has enough clout, but a small enough ego to resurect this film the way Kubrick envisioned it? My answers are: 1). Gary Oldman 2). A beautiful French model that no one has ever heard of 3). Perhaps PJ ---
**Author:** ![Julius\_Henry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@Julius\_Henry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Julius_Henry)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stanley-kubricks-napoleon/199420/2 "2003-09-03T22:47:53Z")
The problem is that Kubrick didn’t feel he was able to do the film the way he envisioned it. And if Kubrick couldn’t do it, it can’t be done. By the way, he was wanting to us Jack Nicholson as Napoleon. Would have been interesting, if nothing else. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stanley-kubricks-napoleon/199420/3 "2003-09-04T00:29:24Z")
PJ? That little tike in the Family Circus cartoons? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stanley-kubricks-napoleon/199420/4 "2003-09-04T00:59:58Z")
PJ O’Rourke? He’s a good columnist, but I don’t think he has any experience as a filmmaker. ---
**Author:** ![prisoner6655321](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f8ce5/32.png) [@prisoner6655321](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/prisoner6655321)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stanley-kubricks-napoleon/199420/5 "2003-09-04T02:41:58Z")
Yeah, Kubrick had two movies he had been dreaming of making for a major portion of his life. His real goals in life were to make them both. One he died producing and the other was Napolean. The problem was that Kubrick wanted to show Napolean’s entire life. He didn’t have time to show it all in one 3 hour movie. The scale was so grand that only he could have pulled it off. I wish he could have tried. It would have been his legacy. Now all we have is 2001, The Shining, Full Metal Jacket, Lolita, Barry Lyndon, Dr. Strangelove, Spartacus, etc. Only 13 movies total. 14 if you include AI. And I don’t include that. Kubrick it is definately not. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stanley-kubricks-napoleon/199420/6 "2003-09-04T07:38:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by prisoner6655321 \* > \*\* 14 if you include AI. And I don’t include that. Kubrick it is definately not. \*\* Why would you include it? It’s not a Kubrick movie even if it was his next project. ---
**Author:** ![prisoner6655321](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f8ce5/32.png) [@prisoner6655321](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/prisoner6655321)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stanley-kubricks-napoleon/199420/7 "2003-09-05T07:22:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mahaloth \* > \*\*Why would you include it? It’s not a Kubrick movie even if it was his next project. \*\* He started it. He would have completed it if he hadn’t died. It wouldn’t ever had been done at all if he hadn’t started it. You can sense his presence in the first part of the movie. But very quickly it got hollywood. I am 100% positive that he would not have allowed aliens in this (mostly\*) sci-fi story. That was pure hollywood Spielberg. \*It was a hard-core sci-fi story before the aliens entered the picture. Then it became fantasy. Aliens don’t exist. Therefore, the remaining story wasn’t based on science. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stanley-kubricks-napoleon/199420/8 "2003-09-05T07:38:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by prisoner6655321 \* > \*_He started it. He would have completed it if he hadn’t died. It wouldn’t ever had been done at all if he hadn’t started it. You can sense his presence in the first part of the movie. But very quickly it got hollywood. I am 100% positive that he would not have allowed aliens in this (mostly_) sci-fi story. That was pure hollywood Spielberg. > > \*It was a hard-core sci-fi story before the aliens entered the picture. Then it became fantasy. Aliens don’t exist. Therefore, the remaining story wasn’t based on science. \*\* Um, they weren’t aliens; they were the future generations of robots. And Kubrick’s latest intention, before he died, was to _produce_ **AI** , but hand it over to Spielberg to direct. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stanley-kubricks-napoleon/199420/9 "2003-09-05T07:50:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*It was a hard-core sci-fi story before the aliens entered the picture. Then it became fantasy. Aliens don’t exist. Therefore, the remaining story wasn’t based on science. Huh? It’s not sf if there are aliens in it? Science Fiction can only deal with things that really exsist? ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stanley-kubricks-napoleon/199420/10 "2003-09-05T11:53:59Z")
I want Sophie Marceau or Mathilda May to play Josephine. ---
**Author:** ![prisoner6655321](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f8ce5/32.png) [@prisoner6655321](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/prisoner6655321)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2003, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stanley-kubricks-napoleon/199420/11 "2003-09-06T20:36:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miller \* > \*\*Huh? It’s not sf if there are aliens in it? Science Fiction can only deal with things that really exsist? \*\* No. I’ll quote one of the pre-eminent SCI-Fi writers living today: Orson Scott Card in his book: [HOW TO WRITE SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY](http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/ts/exchange-glance/Y01Y4211098Y4395974/qid=1062880063/sr=1-1/ref=aps_sr_bdgw_z_2_1/103-5486834-9379021) Page 22. > [@](#): > > Science Fiction is about what _could_ be but isnt; fantasy is about what _couldn’t_ be. I suppose aliens _could_ exist but any guess about what they look like and what they are capable is just a guess. Guesses aren’t based on facts. They aren’t based on “what could be.” They are based on artistic creative whim. So until we meet aliens or get some archeological proof of their existence and write about them as facts any story that contains aliens is technically a fantasy. Star Wars is Fantasy. Star Trek is Fantasy. Jurrasic Park is Science Fiction. AI before the aliens\* is Science Fiction. After the aliens is Fantasy. Kubrick would have done the movie if he knew he could have done it. He only thought he couldn’t do it because he was ill. It had been his dream for decades after all. It was one of the great unmade Kubrick movies. And his last attempt was to get it done, even if it meant he had to pass it onto another director. Giving it to Speilburg meant that he could still have it on his own terms rather than allowing some other hollywood hack picking it up and screwing it up worse than he thought Spielburg would do. I do know that when Kubrick died, Spielburg scrapped Kubrick’s script (which he had been working on for decades) and rewrote it. \*I never saw any evidence that they were advanced robots, though I only saw the movie the one time. I’ll look into it. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2003, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stanley-kubricks-napoleon/199420/12 "2003-09-06T22:01:03Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Orson Scott Card, as quoted by prisoner6655321_ > Science Fiction is about what could be but isn’t; fantasy is about what couldn’t be. Oh, _Card_ said it! That changes everything. If it’s just some random guy from the internet saying something like that, I tend to assume he’s just full of shit. But when it’s _Orson Scott Card_ saying it, then I **know** he’s full of shit. No, I’m not particularly a fan. But, my biases aside, he is indeed one of the pre-eminent living science fiction writers. Mostly thanks to the reputation of one book: _Ender’s Game_, since most of the rest of his stuff is pretty middle of the road (actually, I liked the first couple Alvin Journeyman books better than _EG_, but those were definitely fantasy). And what is that book about? Space aliens. In fact, it involves four distinct “impossibilities” that I can recall off the top of my head: space aliens (not an actual impossibility, as will be dealt with later), interstellar war (not impossible per se, but highly unlikely: the resources of a single solar system should be able to sustain an interstellar civilization almost indefinitely), faster than light travel, and telelpathy (both of which are impossible according to the laws of physics as we understand them). Which means, by yours (and, apparently, Card’s) definition, _Ender’s Game_ is a work of fantasy. Which means that Card is not a pre-eminent science fiction author, unless you want to argue he deserves that status on the strength of _The Worthing Saga_ or that god-awful Book of Mormon in Space series he did. _Homecoming_? Whatever, I’m not going to waste the time to google it. The point is, your quute only comes from a pre-eminent sf author if the quote is untrue. If it is true, then Card isn’t an sf author, and is no more an authority on the subject than you or I. Regardless, the idea that science fiction cannot deal with space aliens and still be science fiction is contrary to the popularly accepted definition of science fiction, and even the more specialized definition of science fiction favored by most people who are versed in the genre. I suspect that even Card would disagree with you, since I simply can’t imagine him making the argument you claim he is making. I’d need a better cite than a link to [Amazon.com](http://Amazon.com) before I accept your interpretation of that quote, and even if you find one, I can tell you right now that it’ll do more to change my opinion about Card then it will to change my opinion about the definition of “science fiction.” > [@](#): > > I suppose aliens _could_ exist but any guess about what they look like and what they are capable is just a guess. Guesses aren’t based on facts. Nonsense. Haven’t you ever heard of an “educated guess”? > [@](#): > > They aren’t based on “what could be.” They are based on artistic creative whim. So until we meet aliens or get some archeological proof of their existence and write about them as facts any story that contains aliens is technically a fantasy. Again, nonsense. No, more than nonsense: bullshit. Certainly, sf aliens don’t resemble any actual alien species that might exsist somewhere in the universe, but that doesn’t mean that a solid grounding in science can’t allow an author to make reasonable guesses about how life _might_ evolve under different circumstances than that on Earth. Hie ye to the bookstore and find something written by C.J. Cherryh, Vernor Vinge, or one of Wayne Barlow’s books of sf illustrations. > [@](#): > > Star Wars is Fantasy. True, although I doubt you can explain why. Hint: it’s not because of Chewbacca. > [@](#): > > Star Trek is Fantasy. Wrong. Star Trek is sf. It’s generally really bad sf, but it is still sf. > [@](#): > > Jurrasic Park is Science Fiction. Correct, but note that the science underlying Jurassic Park is not much better than the science underlying Star Trek. Can you explain why one counts as sf and one doesn’t? > [@](#): > > AI before the aliens\* is Science Fiction. After the aliens is Fantasy. I never saw AI, so all I can do here is reinforce the fact that, wether they were robots or aliens has no effect on wether the movie was science fiction or not. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2003, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stanley-kubricks-napoleon/199420/13 "2003-09-07T00:33:57Z")
prisoner6655321 - They weren’t aliens. They were robots that had evolved over the thousands of years AI boy was trapped in the ice. ---
**Author:** ![prisoner6655321](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f8ce5/32.png) [@prisoner6655321](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/prisoner6655321)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2003, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stanley-kubricks-napoleon/199420/14 "2003-09-07T05:43:34Z")
I am bringing the alien and sci-fi arguments over to new discussions. [Were the beings in the movie A.I. aliens or robots?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=209658) [Aliens in stories: Sci-Fi or Fantasy?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=209659)