# Star Trek and Relativity **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 29, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-and-relativity/501386 "2009-06-29T20:01:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-and-relativity/501386/21 "2009-06-30T01:42:55Z")
There is a speculative notion of something called an “[Alcubierre drive](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive)” which works by contracting space-time in front of your ship while expanding it behind your ship; this could very well be referred to as a “warp drive”, since you would in fact be warping (distorting) space. _ **If** _ you could actually warp spacetime in this way, then the crew of your hypothetical starship would in fact _not_ experience time dilation. As **Chronos** points out, proposals for ways of actually “contracting space-time in front of your ship while expanding it behind your ship” are roughly on a par with “a wizard does it!”, so (alas) there is no reason to think the Universe will ever actually let us go gallivanting about the Galaxy at warp speeds. There’s also that whole “FTL=time travel” difficulty (although to be fair to _Star Trek_, time travel featured repeatedly in its various incarnations). ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-and-relativity/501386/22 "2009-06-30T01:44:34Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Why can’t they just go AT the speed of light, instead of slower or faster than it? It would still take years to travel to another sun. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-and-relativity/501386/23 "2009-06-30T01:47:48Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > Warp 0.5 would be twice the speed of full impulse, by the way. To the best of my knowledge, no sublight vessel can travel that fast. Huh?😕 How is 0.5 FASTER than 1.0? Oh, wait a sec–full impulse is not the same as warp drive. I knew that. :smack: But I don’t get your next remark: the Enterprise could travel at sublight speeds as well as warp, so are you saying any sublight ONLY vessel? Sure, I would then agree, but we weren’t talking about exclusively sublight vessels, were we? I get that the speed of light is still to slow for the distances involved, but it wouldn’t be for SOME travel. Note: Kirk did NOT fall in love with Miss Spoiled Bitch Princess With No Table Manners. He let her down easy because he didn’t want to crush her spirit. He’s nice like that. IMO he rarely fell in love with any of the female aliens–but he sure did enjoy them. He loved Carol Marcus, Mirramonee (spelling?), Edith Keeler (suppresses gag reflex) and maybe one other (I’m not counting alternate reality Antonia). I think he had a soft spot for his yeomen, Janice Rand ( he certainly found her attractive–I wish they had explored that a bit more in subsequent episodes). 3-4 really serious relationships spanning a 20+ year career sounds about right to me. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-and-relativity/501386/24 "2009-06-30T02:08:10Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Edith Keeler (suppresses gag reflex) Calm yourself. She has her good points, if one can’t have [Elizabeth Taylor.](http://por-img.cimcontent.net/api/assets/bin-200906/c47f416eda1e7a5347d40dc796b52236.jpg) Of course Rebecca here is a Nice Jewish Girl, and Edith Keeler is a Shiksa, so you might have something there… ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-and-relativity/501386/25 "2009-06-30T02:36:00Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > Well, one important aspect that you overlooked is that relativity tells us that faster-than-light travel is completely impossible for anything with a nonzero mass (like a spaceship.) Not exactly; it says you can’t accelerate past lightspeed. So you also have ideas like tachyons, which never go slower than light, and the idea of somehow “jumping” past the limit without accelerating past it. And of course wormholes. > [@Oakminster](#): > > This thread was semi-inspired by a Heinlein story about telepathic twins. One twin went on a space ship, other twin stayed home. Multiple pairs of twins were split this way, as the ship was an exploratory voyage. The ship-bound twins stayed young, while the home bound twins aged normally. Think at least one guy was able to link to following generations. [Time For The Stars](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_for_the_Stars). > [@Oakminster](#): > > There’s also a short series…maybe three books…that uses relativity in economics. Can’t remember the titles, think the author was F.M. Busby…something like that. The protagonists made much ballyhoo about taking “the long view” of things, considering space travel. Also think a guy known as Tregare the Pirate was a major player… The Rissa and Tregare novels ? I don’t recall much about economics, but it’s been a long time. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-and-relativity/501386/26 "2009-06-30T02:44:00Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > Warp 0.5 would be twice the speed of full impulse, by the way. To the best of my knowledge, no sublight vessel can travel that fast. Wasn’t that about how fast the enemy ship was going, in THE THOLIAN WEB? “Mister Spock, a vessel approaching on an intercept vector.” “Status, Mister Sulu.” “Range, two hundred thousand kilometers. Velocity, zero point five one C.” ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-and-relativity/501386/27 "2009-06-30T02:55:48Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > But I don’t get your next remark: the Enterprise could travel at sublight speeds as well as warp, so are you saying any sublight ONLY vessel? Sure, I would then agree, but we weren’t talking about exclusively sublight vessels, were we? No. I was just explaining “Warp 0.5” isn’t a “real” speed, and that the speed that would be isn’t possible in Star Trek. > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Wasn’t that about how fast the enemy ship was going, in THE THOLIAN WEB? > > “Mister Spock, a vessel approaching on an intercept vector.” > “Status, Mister Sulu.” > “Range, two hundred thousand kilometers. Velocity, zero point five one C.” ..or maybe it is. The problem with programs that last this long is that there’s always some bit of contradictory dialogue somewhere. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-and-relativity/501386/28 "2009-06-30T03:31:57Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > No. I was just explaining “Warp 0.5” isn’t a “real” speed, and that the speed that would be isn’t possible in Star Trek. Well, maybe if they modulated the warp coils with anti-matter neutrinos from the shield screen tachyons… ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-and-relativity/501386/29 "2009-06-30T03:40:29Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The Rissa and Tregare novels ? I don’t recall much about economics, but it’s been a long time. That sounds right. Think the economic part had something to do with collecting interest earned over decades by investing on a planet, then returning several decades later local time due to time spent at warp. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-and-relativity/501386/30 "2009-06-30T04:05:30Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > And full impulse is 0.25c, so that’s a pretty significant fraction of light speed. There should still be relativistic issues. And even that makes no sense. As long as you apply thrust you will increase your speed. It’s not like there is friction or air resistance to provide a top speed. I never liked Star Trek or Star Wars or any other “science” fiction that ignores science. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-and-relativity/501386/31 "2009-06-30T05:10:32Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > No. I was just explaining “Warp 0.5” isn’t a “real” speed, and that the speed that would be isn’t possible in Star Trek. > > ..or maybe it is. The problem with programs that last this long is that there’s always some bit of contradictory dialogue somewhere. 😛 And the trouble with that piece of dialogue is that long before you’ve finished announcing that something 200,000 km away is approaching at 0.51_c_, it’s right next to you. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-and-relativity/501386/32 "2009-06-30T05:59:54Z")
> [@wolfman](#): > > Well They did sort of approach the issue. Roddenberry added the ‘Stardate’ time system as a way of keeping absolute time. Since any local planetary time would have been meaningless Indeed, it would be a terrible shame if any interstellar method of keeping track of dates were meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-and-relativity/501386/33 "2009-06-30T06:09:51Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Not exactly; it says you can’t accelerate past lightspeed. So you also have ideas like tachyons, which never go slower than light, and the idea of somehow “jumping” past the limit without accelerating past it. And of course wormholes. Going at exactly light speed, unless you play with some sort of warp, has the problem that time stops and you need infinite energy for any mass. That’s why photons are massless. > [@](#): > > The Rissa and Tregare novels ? I don’t recall much about economics, but it’s been a long time. I read the first one of those, but have never gotten the stomach for the second. All I remember is that Busby must have been paid by the world - in this book Ghod forbid he skips any trip to the bathroom a character makes. I don’t remember if the book had Faster than Light drive, but it sure had a Slower than Life narrative style. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-and-relativity/501386/34 "2009-06-30T06:12:52Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > And even that makes no sense. As long as you apply thrust you will increase your speed. It’s not like there is friction or air resistance to provide a top speed. I never liked Star Trek or Star Wars or any other “science” fiction that ignores science. Impulse drive is clearly not a standard reaction drive, since no way are they carrying enough reaction mass to accelerate something as big as the Enterprise to 0.25 c, and nearly instantly also. The least likely thing is that the Captain can order “full stop” for a vessel moving that fast and get it. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-and-relativity/501386/35 "2009-06-30T06:15:47Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Not many. There are a few, but even Hal Clement used warp drives. Otherwise, the distances of space make stories set outside the solar system impossible. Warp drives are considered a perfectly legitimate hard science way to use interstellar travel, since they are not forbidden by science. > > Nowadays, “hard” sf writer still use warp drives, or have super advanced aliens come to us. There are quite a few. Tau Zero by Poul Anderson is one that is all about relativity. L. Sprague de Camp had the Viajens series which explored the problems of taking years to make the trip between stars. As I understood it, he didn’t believe in ftl travel and refused to put it in a story. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-and-relativity/501386/36 "2009-06-30T06:23:42Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > And even that makes no sense. As long as you apply thrust you will increase your speed. It’s not like there is friction or air resistance to provide a top speed. I never liked Star Trek or Star Wars or any other “science” fiction that ignores science. I guess you don’t like video entertainment much at all then? ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-and-relativity/501386/37 "2009-06-30T15:32:20Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Calm yourself. She has her good points, if one can’t have [Elizabeth Taylor.](http://por-img.cimcontent.net/api/assets/bin-200906/c47f416eda1e7a5347d40dc796b52236.jpg) She’s pretty, but high, high maintenance. Not Kirk’s type. He likes 'em feisty and independent. > [@](#): > > Of course Rebecca here is a Nice Jewish Girl, and Edith Keeler is a Shiksa, so you might have something there… Ahahah–Kirk is beyond Judaism and religion. He’s a 23rd century explorer. And unlike most Jewish men, he never, ever mentions his mother and he never calls her. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-and-relativity/501386/38 "2009-06-30T15:38:50Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > And even that makes no sense. As long as you apply thrust you will increase your speed. It’s not like there is friction or air resistance to provide a top speed. I never liked Star Trek or Star Wars or any other “science” fiction that ignores science. The same would be said by the average middle-ager regarding stories involving aircraft let alone rocket ships. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-and-relativity/501386/39 "2009-06-30T15:41:15Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > I never liked Star Trek or Star Wars or any other “science” fiction that ignores science. I’ve never really felt that Star Wars was properly classified as sci-fi. It’s space opera, or fantasy set in space, or something like that. Lucas usually didn’t even _try_ to make up some technobabble to explain stuff. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-and-relativity/501386/40 "2009-06-30T15:43:11Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > And the trouble with that piece of dialogue is that long before you’ve finished announcing that something 200,000 km away is approaching at 0.51_c_, it’s right next to you. :smack: But perhaps they account for that–Chekov says to the Captain, " The wessel is 200,000 keelometers away at blahblahblah" having estimated that it is actually 600,000km away, but knowing that by the end of his sentence their ship will be only 200,000 km away… I think I would love to watch ST:TOS high.\* 😃 \*If only I did such things anymore. ☹ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-and-relativity/501386.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-and-relativity/501386.md?page=3)