# Star Trek Beyond: The Sulu Controversy (minor spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 25, 2016, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-beyond-the-sulu-controversy-minor-spoilers/760853 "2016-07-25T14:15:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-beyond-the-sulu-controversy-minor-spoilers/760853/101 "2016-07-29T05:03:48Z")
It’s a valid grievance. Actually I was surprised that J.J. Abrams allowed something like this to happen ,as ever since Lost, I have held him in esteem as someone who is open to having strong, positive, asian male leads in his dramas. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-beyond-the-sulu-controversy-minor-spoilers/760853/102 "2016-07-29T08:38:16Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Nick Fury? That change was made by the comics first. When they made the Ultimates universe, they got to change things up, and they did. For some reason, people seem to care a lot less when it happens with cartoons. ---
**Author:** ![Lok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e8c25b/32.png) [@Lok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lok)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-beyond-the-sulu-controversy-minor-spoilers/760853/103 "2016-07-29T13:29:30Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > It’s a valid grievance. Actually I was surprised that J.J. Abrams allowed something like this to happen ,as ever since Lost, I have held him in esteem as someone who is open to having strong, positive, asian male leads in his dramas. And what exactly does Sulu being gay change? Is he no longer strong, positive, Asian, or male? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-beyond-the-sulu-controversy-minor-spoilers/760853/104 "2016-07-29T13:53:30Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Assuming Sulu was born after the time change? A different sperm reaching the egg. Which would only require the most minute variance in the circumstances of Sulu’s conception between the two universes. Forget sexual orientation. The fact that everyone in the movie younger than Kirk retained their original gender is statistically pretty unlikely. I guess that’s why they look like different people now. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-beyond-the-sulu-controversy-minor-spoilers/760853/105 "2016-07-29T14:13:37Z")
> [@Lok](#): > > And what exactly does Sulu being gay change? Is he no longer strong, positive, Asian, or male? Yeah, OK, I walked into that critique. But c’mon, you don’t get what the OP is talking about? They marginalized one of the very few remaining stereotypically “normal” asian male characters in all of mainstream modern western media. These things do matter to young asian males growing up. ---
**Author:** ![Omega\_Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7c8e57/32.png) [@Omega\_Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omega_Glory)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-beyond-the-sulu-controversy-minor-spoilers/760853/106 "2016-07-29T14:42:05Z")
I can see Takei’s point, but I’ve struggled and failed to find a charitable way to read the rest of this complaint. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-beyond-the-sulu-controversy-minor-spoilers/760853/107 "2016-07-29T16:23:54Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > They marginalized one of the very few remaining stereotypically “normal” asian male characters in all of mainstream modern western media. These things do matter to young asian males growing up. I’ll have to agree with **Miller** upthread - saying that being gay ‘marginalized’ a character is EXTREMELY offensive! Seriously, WTF? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-beyond-the-sulu-controversy-minor-spoilers/760853/108 "2016-07-29T16:26:46Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > Yeah, OK, I walked into that critique. But c’mon, you don’t get what the OP is talking about? > > They marginalized one of the very few remaining stereotypically “normal” asian male characters in all of mainstream modern western media. These things do matter to young asian males growing up. Marginalized how? The whole point is that homosexuality is no longer marginal nor abnormal. And isn’t this a point that any young male should be shown, regardless of his ethnicity—that a characters sexuality doesn’t make him somehow less? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-beyond-the-sulu-controversy-minor-spoilers/760853/109 "2016-07-29T19:24:58Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > Yeah, OK, I walked into that critique. But c’mon, you don’t get what the OP is talking about? > > They marginalized one of the very few remaining stereotypically “normal” asian male characters in all of mainstream modern western media. These things do matter to young asian males growing up. Message to all young gay Asians: you’re not “normal.” ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-beyond-the-sulu-controversy-minor-spoilers/760853/110 "2016-07-30T04:23:32Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Message to all young gay Asians: you’re not “normal.” I _want_ to live in your world where male homosexuals do not face any disparagement. Can you send me the address? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-beyond-the-sulu-controversy-minor-spoilers/760853/111 "2016-07-30T06:58:10Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > I _want_ to live in your world where male homosexuals do not face any disparagement. Can you send me the address? We’re not there yet, but if you’d stop talking, we might be able to speed things up some. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-beyond-the-sulu-controversy-minor-spoilers/760853/112 "2016-07-30T07:22:25Z")
I was ready for some prevarication, and I haven’t been disappointed. So you agree that, yes gay men are still disparaged in our world. I said it. And my talking about it is the problem??? Miller. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-beyond-the-sulu-controversy-minor-spoilers/760853/113 "2016-07-30T07:44:49Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > I was ready for some prevarication, and I haven’t been disappointed. So you agree that, yes gay men are still disparaged in our world. I said it. And my talking about it is the problem??? Miller. “Prevarication?” What am I lying about? You’re putting forward a strongly homophobic argument. If people, like yourself, would stop making homophobic arguments, gay people as a whole would be less marginalized. What part of that is a lie? ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2016, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-beyond-the-sulu-controversy-minor-spoilers/760853/114 "2016-08-01T11:18:34Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > “Prevarication?” What am I lying about? You’re putting forward a strongly homophobic argument. If people, like yourself, would stop making homophobic arguments, gay people as a whole would be less marginalized. > > What part of that is a lie? Are you trying to goad me into calling you a liar? I won’t. But I think what you are doing is dodging the issue (which is a kind of deception) of what being gay means in today’s world. Look, I could never have foreseen the direction this thread is going. But then again, this is the dope. I could say “kittens are cute” and in ten minutes I will be called a bird-hating monster. It surprises me that people find what I said offensive. And this is where I get to legitimately use the phrase “I’m sorry if you were offended”. Because I didn’t mean to, and I have no idea why you (everyone in general) are. Here it is: 1. I think Asian men have been and still are under-represented and unfairly represented in western media. Does anyone have to care about that? Not really - it’s not anyone’s job to make sure movies have good role models for all races. However, I think it has an effect on the way asian guys see themselves fitting in to western society. And I think if you have an empathetic spirit you might think about this as being a problem. 2.Recently there have been a few (very few) good roles for asian guys in western media and one of them was Sulu in the J.J. Abrams re-boot. Shit, when he jumped head first out of a perfectly good space ship, landed on the base and pulled out the collapsible fencing blade, it was badass. I felt that a lot of asian guys all over the world saw themselves in that scene too. It’s a great scene, by a great actor. 1. Here’s where it gets sticky. Do kids still make fun of other kids in school for being gay? I don’t know. But when I was in school they sure did. In fact everyone was pretty sure that I was gay and I got told it everyday, not in a nice way. I think there are probably still places in the world where homosexuality carries a stigma. Is it my fault? Miller says so. He says that because I still see the problem that I am a perpetuator of the problem. I hope I’m not. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2016, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-beyond-the-sulu-controversy-minor-spoilers/760853/115 "2016-08-01T11:41:55Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > 1. Here’s where it gets sticky. Do kids still make fun of other kids in school for being gay? I don’t know. But when I was in school they sure did. In fact everyone was pretty sure that I was gay and I got told it everyday, not in a nice way. I think there are probably still places in the world where homosexuality carries a stigma. Is it my fault? Miller says so. He says that because I still see the problem that I am a perpetuator of the problem. I hope I’m not. If you are suggesting that portraying an Asian character as gay is to make him not normal or less of a role model, then, yes, that is perpetuating the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2016, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-beyond-the-sulu-controversy-minor-spoilers/760853/116 "2016-08-01T14:16:22Z")
Arguing that making an Asian character gay means that it is no longer a “good role for Asian guys in western media” is _definitely_ perpetuating the problem. Also, it’s a fucking stupid argument to make. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2016, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-beyond-the-sulu-controversy-minor-spoilers/760853/117 "2016-08-01T14:59:21Z")
I can’t see the apparent sentiment of “we finally get some asians in leading roles, why does it have to be undermined by being gay?!” as anything but anti-gay. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2016, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-beyond-the-sulu-controversy-minor-spoilers/760853/118 "2016-08-01T15:40:01Z")
Indeed. It’s a homophobic argument that prevents the goal of making homosexuals not disparaged. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2016, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-beyond-the-sulu-controversy-minor-spoilers/760853/119 "2016-08-01T16:05:25Z")
> [@](#): > > … > 3. Here’s where it gets sticky. Do kids still make fun of other kids in school for being gay? I don’t know. But when I was in school they sure did. In fact everyone was pretty sure that I was gay and I got told it everyday, not in a nice way. I think there are probably still places in the world where homosexuality carries a stigma. Is it my fault? Miller says so. He says that because I still see the problem that I am a perpetuator of the problem. I hope I’m not. It’s not that there are “still places in the world where homosexuality carries a stigma.” You’re not just talking about it. _ **You** _ are saying it’s a stigma, so yes, you are perpetuating the problem. Maybe those poor straight, gay-fearing young Asian males need to question why a gay character isn’t a positive role model for them, and not have you justifying their irrational fear. And maybe the young gay Asian males could use more examples that they are normal and OK. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2016, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-beyond-the-sulu-controversy-minor-spoilers/760853/120 "2016-08-01T16:20:05Z")
If an asian gay or a gay in general “needs” an asian gay role model…ummmm doesn’t a straight asian male need one too (one that ISN"T gay)? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-beyond-the-sulu-controversy-minor-spoilers/760853.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-beyond-the-sulu-controversy-minor-spoilers/760853.md?page=7)