# Star Trek Cloaking Device Question **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 2, 2005, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-cloaking-device-question/315276 "2005-08-02T08:07:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2005, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-cloaking-device-question/315276/21 "2005-08-02T17:44:58Z")
> [@Sage Rat](#): > > WAG: Peace? Yeah, but peace is usually benefical to both sides. If one side gets to continue to develop a technology, and the other doesn’t get to develop it at all, the other better get something worthwhile in return. Unless the Romulans really had the federation over a barrel, or the federation negoatiators have forgotten the term “quid pro quo” ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2005, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-cloaking-device-question/315276/22 "2005-08-02T17:50:48Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Waitaminit … A general rule prohibiting interference with less developed cultures has _no_ logical justification? None? Really? And Janeway invoked it for pretty much any situation at all. “Hello, Janway! The Prime Directive only applies to pre-warp cultures! That means we can do as we like with anyone else” ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2005, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-cloaking-device-question/315276/23 "2005-08-02T18:10:44Z")
> [@The Peter Files](#): > > They also never have said WHY Romulan Ale is illegal. It was found to cause blindness in laboratory tribbles. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2005, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-cloaking-device-question/315276/24 "2005-08-02T20:06:45Z")
> [@HPL](#): > > So exactly what did they get in return? Smooth foreheads. Seems like a small thing, but notice how much grouchier the Klingon women are than the men. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2005, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-cloaking-device-question/315276/25 "2005-08-02T21:34:36Z")
> [@HPL](#): > > Yeah, but peace is usually benefical to both sides. If one side gets to continue to develop a technology, and the other doesn’t get to develop it at all, the other better get something worthwhile in return. > > Unless the Romulans really had the federation over a barrel, or the federation negoatiators have forgotten the term “quid pro quo” Well, as becomes rather apparant by TNG, the Federation is rather capable of countering cloaking technology. There was a TOS episode where Captain Kirk… uhm… aquisitioned a Romulan cloaking device while the rather sexy female commander of the ship in question was busy trying to put the moves on Spock. (Incidentally, that’s my biggest pet peeve with TNG/DS9: The Romulan women got UGLY fast. :mad: ) It’s not really clear if the Federation is actually banned from working on cloaking technology (they have to have some knowledge of the technology if they keep coming up with ways to counter it) or not. It’s clear they can’t equip their ships with it though. Also possible the Klingons help Starfleet with their anti-cloaking stuff, though it seems that Klingon cloaking devices and Romulan cloaking devices are different somehow (Romulan warships at battle stations have been shown on at least one occasion to be unable to detect cloaked Klingon birds of prey at very close range, though the Romulans in question were understandably distracted by the Enterprise D being in their gunsights.) But yeah, on a number of occasions, Starfleet (and later on the Dominion) have cooked up ways of seeing through cloaks. It’s been shown that major powers that don’t use cloaks usually have a reliable method of detecting them (assuming they know to look for them and a general idea of where to look) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2005, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-cloaking-device-question/315276/26 "2005-08-02T22:13:57Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > I think **Alessan** was referring to the Prime Directive being broken every other week. 🙂 Nope, I just don’t like the Prime Directive. If I found out that right now a benevolent group of aliens like the Federation was observing Earth, with the technology to cure all diseases, end world hunger, and show me the stars, and was NOT making contact with us in order to “not interfere with our natural development” (which is a bunch of deterministic hogwash), I would be very, _very_ pissed off. Who are they to determine what’s best for us? What a bunch of arrogant bastards! There’s no such thing as “lesser” cultures, only different ones. Different cultures have an obligation to trade ideas and information, to influence each other. What the Federation does is immoral and unethicall - they study alien societies, learn as much as they can from them, and yet they never teach anything in return. Huw is that not a form of intellectual robbery? Plus, they keep on violating it. ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2005, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-cloaking-device-question/315276/27 "2005-08-02T23:48:39Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > IIRC, basically an understanding that the Klingons and Romulans won’t move on Federation claimed territory I was under the impression that is what Starfleet is primarily for(even though it’s not a “military organization”, even though they carry weapons that make nuclear bombs look like fire crackers), and that “We won’t cross into your territory, you won’t cross into ours”, in treaty form, would be sufficent. If the Romulans had said “We’ll sign a peace tready, but we want you to never develop cloaking tech as a condition”, the federation could have easily said “Screw you, buddy! We can make Romulas glow in the dark, and then not only will we not have to worry about you invading us, we can develop cloaking tech without you whining about it” For the Romulans to say “Oh, and you can’t develop cloaks, we like have” is arrogent beyond belief. If the federation accepted it, it makes them idiots(as opposed to a smart counteroffer “Okay, we won’t develop cloaking tech, but in exhange, you can’t develop plasma weapons”). Quid pro Quo, Clarice. Quid Pro Quo. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-cloaking-device-question/315276/28 "2005-08-03T00:05:14Z")
> [@toadspittle](#): > > They never point it out in the Pegasus episode, but wouldn’t the phase cloak make a ship not only invisible, but invulnerable? I mean, it can fly through solid rock … what are a few photon torpedoes going to do to it? (as opposed to the romulan/klingon cloaks, which force you to drop shields, so you can get creamed by enemy fire). Um…a typical Trek one-episode plot device that is immediately forgotten by everyone on the Enterprise, the Alpha Quadrant, and the entire universe as soon as the credits roll? -Joe, polt dveice ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-cloaking-device-question/315276/29 "2005-08-03T02:38:23Z")
> [@HPL](#): > > So exactly what did they get in return? Chicks, man. Chicks. ---
**Author:** ![Spatial\_Rift\_47](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a8b319/32.png) [@Spatial\_Rift\_47](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spatial_Rift_47)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-cloaking-device-question/315276/30 "2005-08-03T02:46:02Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Nope, I just don’t like the Prime Directive. If I found out that right now a benevolent group of aliens like the Federation was observing Earth, with the technology to cure all diseases, end world hunger, and show me the stars, and was NOT making contact with us in order to “not interfere with our natural development” (which is a bunch of deterministic hogwash), I would be very, _very_ pissed off. Who are they to determine what’s best for us? What a bunch of arrogant bastards! > > There’s no such thing as “lesser” cultures, only different ones. Different cultures have an obligation to trade ideas and information, to influence each other. What the Federation does is immoral and unethicall - they study alien societies, learn as much as they can from them, and yet they never teach anything in return. Huw is that not a form of intellectual robbery? Let’s suppose that we were being observed by a Federation observing the Prime Directive. They wouldn’t be deciding anything at all regarding our development, they’d be too busy not interfering. Not doing anything at all to change our development one way or another, even if it meant sitting back and doing nothing while we all get cancer and die or blow ourselves to pieces with nukes or lose the planet to an asteroid impact. This exact discussion played itself out in _Insurrection_, when Admiral Dougherty argued that since the Ba’ku originated on a planet without metaphasic radiation, moving them to a planet without it would be restoring their “natural evolution.” To which Picard replied, “Who the _hell_ are we to determine the next course of evolution for these people!?” In other words, these hypothetical advanced aliens would be fiddling with our development if they did share advanced knowledge with us, rather than letting us come to it ourselves, or not, on our own. The underlying assumption is that advanced technology requires a matching level of advanced social structure in order to not fuck up the application of the advanced technology. That is also the idea behind the (admittedly somewhat arbitrary) limit of warp capability. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-cloaking-device-question/315276/31 "2005-08-03T03:07:08Z")
One of the many books (non canon, of course) dealt with a primitive society that somehow, maybe it was biologically, produced a warp signature that caused a relook at the whole sticky problem of Captain’s Perogotive circumventing Prime Directive. I seem to remember that it was rather boring overall, except for that interesting concept. The 2000s series ENT attempted to forshadow the reasons for the Prime Directive in the episode _Cogenitor_, which is regarded by many Trek Dopers as one of the few truly good eps in that series. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-cloaking-device-question/315276/32 "2005-08-03T03:08:31Z")
Captain Picard muses in front of the viewscreen: “The indigenous peoples of the planet below are killing and eating each other, while the Prime Directive prevents us from doing anything except drinking tea and scratching ourselves. Number One, when was the last time the carpet was cleaned? Wesley’s been eating popcorn in my chair again. Gum? Is that gum? The little bastard spat his gun on my bridge carpet! Mister Data! Show me the bottom of your shoes! At once, Sir, at once!” ---
**Author:** ![Snooooopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Snooooopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snooooopy)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-cloaking-device-question/315276/33 "2005-08-03T04:21:40Z")
The Federation shouldn’t have gotten a direct descendant of Neville Chamberlain to negotiate the treaty. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-cloaking-device-question/315276/34 "2005-08-03T04:29:24Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Um…a typical Trek one-episode plot device that is immediately forgotten by everyone on the Enterprise, the Alpha Quadrant, and the entire universe as soon as the credits roll? > > -Joe, polt dveice In a later episode, the Romulans get caught messing around with Phase cloaking too. I don’t remember an exact cite, but I seem to recall that Phase cloak technolgy is illegal, thus, it doesn’t get mentioned since it’s a moot point. Kinda like if you were to have a war movie taking place in WWII, you wouldn’t have Mustard Gas getting mentioned very often since nobody considered using it due to it’s widely regarded nastiness. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-cloaking-device-question/315276/35 "2005-08-03T12:31:44Z")
> [@Snooooopy](#): > > The Federation shouldn’t have gotten a direct descendant of Neville Chamberlain to negotiate the treaty. OTOH, “Peace in our time” takes on an entirely different meaning when Rick Berman is producing. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-cloaking-device-question/315276.md?page=1)