Star Trek DS9

[carnivorousplant]

@Dale_Sams

Speaking from my own experience…every person who spoke to me when there was some doubt as to their being alive…was in fact…alive.

I dunno, some of them could have been worm hole aliens. :dubious:

[Kamino_Neko]

@Tanbarkie

(and quite a few of the ostensible “villains” had humanizing arcs, including full-blown redemption stories)

This leads into one of my few criticisms of DS9. Dukat.

Dukat was affably evil, up front, then began to grow into someone who showed signs of regretting what he’d done, and maybe being able to grow into someone who would at least try to make amends, or mitigate the evil he had caused.

Then someone at the staff decided that Dukat was Space Hitler, not Space Ferdinand Porsche, and that was replaced with the whole Pah-Wraith thing, which, while not* badly* done, was an abrupt change from where Dukat had been going - a failed redemption arc would have been fine, but an abortive one just pissed me off.

[carnivorousplant]

@Kamino_Neko

Then someone at the staff decided that Dukat was Space Hitler, not Space Ferdinand Porsche, and that was replaced with the whole Pah-Wraith thing, which, while not* badly* done, was an abrupt change from where Dukat had been going - a failed redemption arc would have been fine, but an abortive one just pissed me off.

I agree.
His lieutenant whose name I do not recall with Garak and I believe Kira, stormed the citadel. “That was the last Weoun.”
“I was so hoping so would say that.”

Dukat should have been there.

[Mijin]

@Tanbarkie

Also, DS9 is, to date, the only Trek series that spent significant time and effort showing that the “bad guys” are as multifaceted and morally complex as the “good guys.” That is a fundamentally optimistic perspective as well - the idea the “other” may be doing things that we disagree with for what they consider a good reason. For all the war and bloodshed that DS9 depicted, it always showed that the Cardassians, Klingons, and even the Dominion were full of people doing their understanding of the right thing. Almost none of the major antagonists of DS9 were moustache-twirling villains (and quite a few of the ostensible “villains” had humanizing arcs, including full-blown redemption stories), and the series is far, far the better for it.

I think you make a good defence of DS9, good points raised (it doesn’t make up for the lack of exploration for me, but like I say, YMMV).

I wanted to discuss this part more, about the villains.
I wouldn’t agree that trek is mostly moustache twirling villains…if you list all the species/groups encountered, bad guys doing something for what they think is the greater good, or because of some important cultural principle seem more common.
Which I think is a positive feature of ST compared to a lot of sci-fi.

Thinking about some of the simple bad guys, we get:
Klingons, in TOS. But I think IIRC in the films they start to become more multifaceted, and then of course in the later treks.
Romulans…they are a similar “slimy evil” to the cardassians, but of course the latter got fleshed out in DS9 and the former never has, I think.
The Ferengi in TNG…this was just a one-off episode but it was so OTT and camp it deserved a mention.

[carnivorousplant]

Ricardo Montalban said that he played villains as someone who thought he had been horribly wronged. “They killed (a lot) of my people, including my beloved Wife.”
“This is Ceti Alpha V! Admiral Kirk never returned to check on us!”

[friedo]

@Kamino_Neko

This leads into one of my few criticisms of DS9. Dukat.

Dukat was affably evil, up front, then began to grow into someone who showed signs of regretting what he’d done, and maybe being able to grow into someone who would at least try to make amends, or mitigate the evil he had caused.

Then someone at the staff decided that Dukat was Space Hitler, not Space Ferdinand Porsche, and that was replaced with the whole Pah-Wraith thing, which, while not* badly* done, was an abrupt change from where Dukat had been going - a failed redemption arc would have been fine, but an abortive one just pissed me off.

Dukat went crazy after his illegitimate half-Bajoran daughter was killed by Damar. Regardless of your opinion of the whole pah-wraith thing (which was pretty weird) it didn’t exactly come out of nowhere. He was a coldly rational tyrant, then a conflicted puppet, then a whackjob with a high-level clearance.

[smiling_bandit]

@friedo

Dukat went crazy after his illegitimate half-Bajoran daughter was killed by Damar. Regardless of your opinion of the whole pah-wraith thing (which was pretty weird) it didn’t exactly come out of nowhere. He was a coldly rational tyrant, then a conflicted puppet, then a whackjob with a high-level clearance.

Yes, but he shouldn’t have come back after Waltz. It was simply the natural end for the character, and after that he was essentially a replaceable villain with no depth. And while his part in Season 7 wasn’t bad per se, it also wasn’t really necessary and would have made room for better stories.

[Dale_Sams]

@carnivorousplant

I agree.
His lieutenant whose name I do not recall with Garak and I believe Kira, stormed the citadel. “That was the last Weoun.”
“I was so hoping so would say that.”

Dukat should have been there.

Hilariously “Whose name I do not recall” is almost certainly THE HERO of Cardassia’s successful revolt against the tyranny of the backstabbing Dominion. And kind of rightfully so. Damar would have giant statues in every corner of the globe.

Garek might have a mention and that Bajoran liason who hid behind some rubble and then tried to take credit in the storming of the Changeling Fortress? We don’t even remember her name.

[Aji_de_Gallina]

It was my favorite.
It broke the “we’re so evolved, so rational” stuff that I hated from TNG.*
It was different, characters were more developed and nuanced.
Less montster-of-the-week and more about people. Less “warp 9”.

*That’s why I loved Dr. Pulaski, she never drank the kool-aid.