# Star Trek II, Wrath of Khan question re: ending **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 15, 2014, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182 "2014-04-15T15:30:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/21 "2014-04-15T19:44:19Z")
I don’t have a problem with the ending as such. Kirk may have the vague hope (buoyed no doubt from long experience with Scotty’s abilities) that the _Enterprise_ can either crawl out of range on impulse alone (he glances at David Marcus, wondering if 4000 kilometers was enough - Marcus indicates not) or get warp drive back in time. When the “mains are back on-line”, Kirk immediately credits Scotty for pulling off another miracle: Bridge officer: Sir, the mains are back on-line. Kirk: _Yes_, Scotty. Go, Sulu! Later: Kirk: [speaking into intercom] Engine room. Well done, Scotty. McCoy: [voice on intercom] Jim, I think you better get down here. Kirk: Bones? McCoy: Better hurry. Kirk glances at Spock’s empty chair. If there’s a plot hole, it might be in why they didn’t just blast the _Reliant_ (and Genesis torpedo) into smithereens. I’d fanwank that the Nebula and the damage suffered by _Enterprise_ made hitting even a relatively stationary target tricky and it was safer to just run. Spock (who was more familiar with the extensively remodeled _Enterprise_) just realized earlier than Kirk what had to be done, and didn’t have time to explain. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/22 "2014-04-15T19:47:32Z")
For what it’s worth, my impression wasn’t that Kirk would not command Spock not to do it, or that he would command him to do it. But that Spock was sparing Kirk the knowledge that would’ve meant he’d have to make that choice. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/23 "2014-04-15T19:52:51Z")
Heck, maybe Kirk watched Spock get into the turbolift, assumed he was headed to engineering (and not the bathroom), and realized that Spock wouldn’t need any assistance, so his best place was on the bridge. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/24 "2014-04-15T19:56:34Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Heck, maybe Kirk watched Spock get into the turbolift, assumed he was headed to engineering (and not the bathroom), and realized that Spock wouldn’t need any assistance, so his best place was on the bridge. Don’t be silly; they didn’t have bathrooms! ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/25 "2014-04-15T20:09:38Z")
Because the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few or the one. And Spock is a hero. ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/26 "2014-04-15T20:35:03Z")
The novelization made it explicit that Spock was continuing to function after absorbing radiation that would have incapacitated a human. FWIW. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/27 "2014-04-15T20:42:00Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Don’t be silly; they didn’t have bathrooms! Of course they did. Why do you think Khan was so wrathful? The time that he was on the Enterprise, Chekov kept him waiting for one. That why Khan recognized him on Ceti Alpha V. At least that’s how Walter Koenig explains it. ---
**Author:** ![Tanbarkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@Tanbarkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tanbarkie)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/28 "2014-04-15T22:20:11Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I don’t have a problem with the ending as such. Kirk may have the vague hope (buoyed no doubt from long experience with Scotty’s abilities) that the _Enterprise_ can either crawl out of range on impulse alone (he glances at David Marcus, wondering if 4000 kilometers was enough - Marcus indicates not) or get warp drive back in time. When the “mains are back on-line”, Kirk immediately credits Scotty for pulling off another miracle: > > Bridge officer: Sir, the mains are back on-line. > Kirk: _Yes_, Scotty. Go, Sulu! > > Later: > > Kirk: [speaking into intercom] Engine room. Well done, Scotty. > McCoy: [voice on intercom] Jim, I think you better get down here. > Kirk: Bones? > McCoy: Better hurry. > Kirk glances at Spock’s empty chair. Anyone who thinks that the ending comprises a plot hole because Kirk didn’t go himself has, I think, missed the point of Kirk’s arc in the film. Kirk would never knowingly go to his death the way Spock did - not because he isn’t the self-sacrificing type, but because _he doesn’t believe in no win scenarios_. Up until the moment he sees Spock in the engine room, he’s still the same Jim Kirk who rigged the Kobayashi Maru, the one that believes there’s always a way to squirrel out of any situation unscathed. He only has to figure out what it is. Notice how, in what I quoted above, that his reaction at the mains coming back online is an immediate assumption that one of his galant crew has, once again, found a last-minute miracle that will save his ship and crew. He’s Jim Kirk, dammit. No win scenarios are for other people. This reflects what has always been the fundamental difference between Kirk and Spock. Both men are heroes, and both men are brilliant. But Kirk’s methodology has always been about figuring out the impossible solution, while Spock’s has been a dispassionate analysis of the situation, determining what needs to be done, and then doing it. Think of Spock’s line: “I never took the Kobayashi Maru test. What do you think of my solution?” And compare how he solves the no win scenario with how Kirk did. That’s the whole point of the ending - hell, the whole friggin’ theme of the movie. James T. Kirk, the ageless, indomitable captain who never once had to truly grapple with mortality, whose reaction to the most extreme adversity has been to always, always find an unexpected way out, is finally forced (kicking and screaming, at least mentally) to come face to face with the inevitability of death. And in doing so, he finally transcends the Jim Kirk that scoffed at the no win scenario and comes to terms with his own mortality. ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/29 "2014-04-15T22:26:07Z")
> [@Tanbarkie](#): > > Anyone who thinks that the ending comprises a plot hole because Kirk didn’t go himself has, I think, missed the point of Kirk’s arc in the film. Kirk would never knowingly go to his death the way Spock did - not because he isn’t the self-sacrificing type, but because _he doesn’t believe in no win scenarios_. Up until the moment he sees Spock in the engine room, he’s still the same Jim Kirk who rigged the Kobayashi Maru, the one that believes there’s always a way to squirrel out of any situation unscathed. He only has to figure out what it is. Notice how, in what I quoted above, that his reaction at the mains coming back online is an immediate assumption that one of his galant crew has, once again, found a last-minute miracle that will save his ship and crew. He’s Jim Kirk, dammit. No win scenarios are for other people. > > This reflects what has always been the fundamental difference between Kirk and Spock. Both men are heroes, and both men are brilliant. But Kirk’s methodology has always been about figuring out the impossible solution, while Spock’s has been a dispassionate analysis of the situation, determining what needs to be done, and then doing it. Think of Spock’s line: “I never took the Kobayashi Maru test. What do you think of my solution?” And compare how he solves the no win scenario with how Kirk did. > > That’s the whole point of the ending - hell, the whole friggin’ theme of the movie. James T. Kirk, the ageless, indomitable captain who never once had to truly grapple with mortality, whose reaction to the most extreme adversity has been to always, always find an unexpected way out, is finally forced (kicking and screaming, at least mentally) to come face to face with the inevitability of death. And in doing so, he finally transcends the Jim Kirk that scoffed at the no win scenario and comes to terms with his own mortality. That was…eloquently stated. Bravo. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/30 "2014-04-15T22:27:49Z")
> [@OneCentStamp](#): > > That was…eloquently stated. Bravo. Agreed. Very good analysis. ---
**Author:** ![Tanbarkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@Tanbarkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tanbarkie)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/31 "2014-04-15T22:30:43Z")
Aw, thanks guys. I’m blushing! ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/32 "2014-04-15T22:49:54Z")
I also agree. ---
**Author:** ![Nonsuch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonsuch/32/2922_2.png) [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/33 "2014-04-15T23:02:01Z")
I think **Tanbarkie** stuck a fork in this thread. Well said. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/34 "2014-04-15T23:10:21Z")
Well, a coda: I wish they’d left Spock dead! The whole point of the movie - the coming to grips with mortality, the fact that no-win scenarios exist - is completely wiped away if Spock gets saved from death by the Genesis device. Kirk was wrong to think anything changed. He got to “win” and get Spock back. I think it would make him even more reckless in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/35 "2014-04-15T23:31:56Z")
> [@Tanbarkie](#): > > Anyone who thinks that the ending comprises a plot hole because Kirk didn’t go himself has, I think, missed the point of Kirk’s arc in the film. Kirk would never knowingly go to his death the way Spock did - not because he isn’t the self-sacrificing type, but because _he doesn’t believe in no win scenarios_. Up until the moment he sees Spock in the engine room, he’s still the same Jim Kirk who rigged the Kobayashi Maru, the one that believes there’s always a way to squirrel out of any situation unscathed. He only has to figure out what it is. Notice how, in what I quoted above, that his reaction at the mains coming back online is an immediate assumption that one of his galant crew has, once again, found a last-minute miracle that will save his ship and crew. He’s Jim Kirk, dammit. No win scenarios are for other people. > > This reflects what has always been the fundamental difference between Kirk and Spock. Both men are heroes, and both men are brilliant. But Kirk’s methodology has always been about figuring out the impossible solution, while Spock’s has been a dispassionate analysis of the situation, determining what needs to be done, and then doing it. Think of Spock’s line: “I never took the Kobayashi Maru test. What do you think of my solution?” And compare how he solves the no win scenario with how Kirk did. > > That’s the whole point of the ending - hell, the whole friggin’ theme of the movie. James T. Kirk, the ageless, indomitable captain who never once had to truly grapple with mortality, whose reaction to the most extreme adversity has been to always, always find an unexpected way out, is finally forced (kicking and screaming, at least mentally) to come face to face with the inevitability of death. And in doing so, he finally transcends the Jim Kirk that scoffed at the no win scenario and comes to terms with his own mortality. Nice analysis - I would presume to suggest that earlier in the movie Kirk is vaguely _recognizing_ his mortality (or at least his aging) - he’s petulant about his birthday, vaguely annoyed at having to wear glasses, embarrassed about being “caught with his britches down”, infuriated by his impotence leading to the “Khaaannn!” moment… He gets some of his footing back at the rebirth/wonder of the Genesis Cave, starts feeling cocky about the “hours seem like days” bit, but then it comes crashing down on him again with Spock’s death. He might have sunk into depression and self-loathing, but a heartfelt talk with his long-lost son helped greatly, along with the renewed rebirth/wonder of the Genesis Planet (basically a much larger version of the cave). Kirk is now aware of his mortality, but coming to peace with it. And I agree that Spock should have stayed dead. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/36 "2014-04-15T23:46:55Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Well, a coda: > > I wish they’d left Spock dead! The whole point of the movie - the coming to grips with mortality, the fact that no-win scenarios exist - is completely wiped away if Spock gets saved from death by the Genesis device. Kirk was wrong to think anything changed. He got to “win” and get Spock back. I think it would make him even more reckless in the future. Leonard Nimoy needed the money. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/37 "2014-04-15T23:48:27Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Leonard Nimoy needed the money. So did Paramount, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/intergalactic_gladiator/32/112_2.png) [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intergalactic_Gladiator)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/38 "2014-04-15T23:48:31Z")
Good analysis. The only thing that I don’t quite get about the movie is that they insist that Kirk never really faced death. He did it all the time in the series and he’s go the dead redshirts and smashed ensign cubes to prove it. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/39 "2014-04-16T00:12:16Z")
“I never took the Kobayashi Maru test. What do you think of my solution?” That line gives me chills every time I hear it. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/40 "2014-04-16T00:14:31Z")
> [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](#): > > Good analysis. The only thing that I don’t quite get about the movie is that they insist that Kirk never really faced death. He did it all the time in the series and he’s go the dead redshirts and smashed ensign cubes to prove it. Well, you build up a resistance after a while, like to spicy food. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182.md?page=3)