# Star Trek II, Wrath of Khan question re: ending **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 15, 2014, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182 "2014-04-15T15:30:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Nonsuch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonsuch/32/2922_2.png) [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/41 "2014-04-16T00:37:02Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Leonard Nimoy needed the money. He wanted to direct. He agreed to do STIII when they let him direct it. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/42 "2014-04-16T00:52:44Z")
Nimoy said in a biography that he had second thoughts about killing his character off, despite the fact that it was his idea. Hence the possibility of coming back left open in _The Wrath of Kahn_, when he melds with McCoy. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/43 "2014-04-16T01:05:06Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Nimoy said in a biography that he had second thoughts about killing his character off, despite the fact that it was his idea. Hence the possibility of coming back left open in _The Wrath of Kahn_, when he melds with McCoy. Using a technique no one had ever seen before (or since). How conveeeeenient! (I LOVE ST:TWoK, but I think the whole katra thing was unnecessary, for the reasons I noted earlier. I must admit, I liked that the “remember” echoed the “forget” in _Requiem For Methuselah_. But as soon as I saw the torpedo on the Genesis planet, I knew he was coming back.) ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/44 "2014-04-16T01:07:01Z")
> [@Nonsuch](#): > > He wanted to direct. He agreed to do STIII when they let him direct it. They should have let him direct without acting in it. Maybe it would have been a better film.😉 ---
**Author:** ![Tanbarkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@Tanbarkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tanbarkie)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/45 "2014-04-16T12:48:01Z")
> [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](#): > > Good analysis. The only thing that I don’t quite get about the movie is that they insist that Kirk never really faced death. He did it all the time in the series and he’s go the dead redshirts and smashed ensign cubes to prove it. For the purposes of the character arc, though, there’s a big difference between a redshirt death and the death of someone as important to Kirk as Spock, though (as unfortunate as that may be for the redshirts). You’re right that Kirk has ordered plenty of people to their deaths, and is not even immune to personal loss (see: Keeler, Edith). But he’s never had to face \*his own \*mortality, and Spock’s death forces him to come to grips with that. It’s the distinction between the death of an intern at your company and the death of your best friend. **Bryan Ekers** makes a great point about how Kirk starts to recognize his age (and by extension, oncoming expiration date) throughout the film, and it’s what makes the ending a conclusion to the film’s grander themes, rather than a nonsensical tearjerker. And it’s why Spock’s death resonates more deeply than, say, that of Kirk’s son in _Star Trek III._ “The Wrath of Khan” is fundamentally a film about growing old and facing one’s mortality, and the death of Spock is the period at the end of the sentence. David’s death in the sequel, on the other hand, is a J.J. Abrams-style shock moment, designed to wake the audience up with a hard left turn, but not to reinforce any deeper themes of the movie. Don’t get me started, by the way, on the “death” scene in “Star Trek Into Darkness.” Let’s just say that few remakes have so thoroughly misunderstood the purpose behind their progenitors. **Edited to add:** > [@](#): > > Using a technique no one had ever seen before (or since). How conveeeeenient! > > (I LOVE ST:TWoK, but I think the whole katra thing was unnecessary, for the reasons I noted earlier. I must admit, I liked that the “remember” echoed the “forget” in Requiem For Methuselah. But as soon as I saw the torpedo on the Genesis planet, I knew he was coming back.) It should be noted that the entire “katra” and “torpedo landing” scenes were added to the film against the director’s will. Basically, the studio saw the commercial potential of the movie once Meyer put together his rough cut and forced him to open the door to Spock’s return in a sequel. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/46 "2014-04-16T14:42:33Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > …It bugs me more that Kirk …keeps leaving Saavik–a lieutenant–with the conn when Sulu and Uhura are RIGHT THERE. Agreed. Saavik was up to the task, but Sulu and Uhura outranked her and were far more experienced. > [@bump](#): > > …I’m sure Spock was the recipient of the Starfleet equivalent of the Medal of Honor/Victoria Cross/etc… There is indeed a Starfleet Medal of Honor, and Kirk himself had earlier won it: [Starfleet Medal of Honor | Memory Alpha | Fandom](http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Starfleet_Medal_of_Honor) > [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > For what it’s worth, my impression wasn’t that Kirk would not command Spock not to do it, or that he would command him to do it. But that Spock was sparing Kirk the knowledge that would’ve meant he’d have to make that choice. Agreed. It was a kindness not to force him to make that agonizing decision, especially given that time was fleeting. > [@Quimby](#): > > Because the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few or the one. > > And Spock is a hero. Also true. > [@OneCentStamp](#): > > That was…eloquently stated. Bravo. Also also true! > [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Using a technique no one had ever seen before (or since). How conveeeeenient!.. They used it again in a Vulcan arc of stories on _Star Trek: Enterprise_. ---
**Author:** ![Bakhesh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Bakhesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bakhesh)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/47 "2014-04-16T14:51:07Z")
If only they had realised that they just needed to inject Spock with some Khan blood. Bet they feel really stupid now ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/48 "2014-04-16T15:35:50Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Nice analysis - I would presume to suggest that earlier in the movie Kirk is vaguely _recognizing_ his mortality (or at least his aging) - he’s petulant about his birthday, vaguely annoyed at having to wear glasses, embarrassed about being “caught with his britches down”, infuriated by his impotence leading to the “Khaaannn!” moment… He gets some of his footing back at the rebirth/wonder of the Genesis Cave, starts feeling cocky about the “hours seem like days” bit, but then it comes crashing down on him again with Spock’s death. He might have sunk into depression and self-loathing, but a heartfelt talk with his long-lost son helped greatly, along with the renewed rebirth/wonder of the Genesis Planet (basically a much larger version of the cave). Kirk is now aware of his mortality, but coming to peace with it. > > And I agree that Spock should have stayed dead. Kirk isn’t even metaphorically impotent during the Khan scream. He’s playing Khan. He wants Khan thinking that he, Khan, has _definitively_ defeated him, Kirk, so Khan won’t bother chasing after _Enterprise right away._ ---
**Author:** ![Pixel\_Dent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bc8723/32.png) [@Pixel\_Dent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pixel_Dent)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/49 "2014-04-16T15:51:02Z")
Wrath of Khan is a retelling of Moby Dick. Spock is Queequeg and thus dies at the end. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/50 "2014-04-16T15:52:21Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Don’t be silly; they didn’t have bathrooms! The blueprints show bathrooms at the front of the bridge behind the view screen. It’s why the instruments beep so loudly - to cover up the sound of flushing. (Excellent analysis in this thread.) ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/51 "2014-04-16T16:00:52Z")
> [@Pixel\_Dent](#): > > Wrath of Khan is a retelling of Moby Dick. Spock is Queequeg and thus dies at the end. This is, I assume, a joke. Kirk is hardly Ahab. He’s not only not obsessed with Khan, he’s hardly given him a thought in fifteen years. ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/52 "2014-04-16T16:02:46Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > This is, I assume, a joke. Kirk is hardly Ahab. He’s not only not obsessed with Khan, he’s hardly given him a thought in fifteen years. Khan is Ahab, to the point that he quotes or paraphrases him constantly throughout the film. My guess is that **Pixel\_Dent** was jokingly reversing that. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/53 "2014-04-16T16:03:08Z")
Other way around - Khan is Ahab. “From hell’s heart I stab at thee” is Ahab’s final speech after all. Which makes Kirk the whale of course, and Chekov is Ishmael. Or something. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/54 "2014-04-16T16:03:51Z")
> [@OneCentStamp](#): > > Khan is Ahab, to the point that he quotes or paraphrases him constantly throughout the film. My guess is that **Pixel\_Dent** was jokingly reversing that. Everybody knows that Rhymers have no sense of humor. ---
**Author:** ![Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/intergalactic_gladiator/32/112_2.png) [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intergalactic_Gladiator)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/55 "2014-04-16T16:07:14Z")
> [@Bakhesh](#): > > If only they had realised that they just needed to inject Spock with some Khan blood. Bet they feel really stupid now It woulda been easy peasy. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/56 "2014-04-16T16:15:49Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Other way around - Khan is Ahab. “From hell’s heart I stab at thee” is Ahab’s final speech after all. Which makes Kirk the whale of course, and Chekov is Ishmael. Or something. As long as we didn’t have to have a hour long subplot about the 24th century equivalent of the minutiae of glorious whale sperm. And considering you have cast Kirk as the White Whale, thank goodness! [shudder] ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/57 "2014-04-16T16:20:50Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Which makes Kirk the whale of course. Harve Bennett saw Shatner in a Speedo and the script just wrote itself. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/58 "2014-04-16T16:38:02Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > As long as we didn’t have to have a hour long subplot about the 24th century equivalent of the minutiae of glorious whale sperm. And considering you have cast Kirk as the White Whale, thank goodness! [shudder] I guess we should all be thankful the movie came out before they started saving all the deleted scenes for the DVD release. ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/59 "2014-04-16T16:43:32Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Harve Bennett saw Shatner in a Speedo and the script just wrote itself. Harve Bennett saw Shatner completely naked, said “That’s all the ‘rod n’ berries’ this film needs, if you know what I mean,” and fired Gene R. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/60 "2014-04-16T18:46:50Z")
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