# Star Trek II, Wrath of Khan question re: ending **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 15, 2014, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182 "2014-04-15T15:30:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Gretchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8edcca/32.png) [@Gretchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gretchion)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/81 "2014-04-17T04:41:22Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’ve never bought this interpretation and don’t see how the movie is improved by it. I’m curious as to how you interpret it then. Do you see it as Kirk really believing he is stranded? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/82 "2014-04-17T05:22:33Z")
> [@Gretchion](#): > > I’m curious as to how you interpret it then. Do you see it as Kirk really believing he is stranded? No, I believe that he _tried_ to delay Khan (and buy _Enterprise_ some time) by taunting him in the hopes of drawing him down to the asteroid, but it didn’t work and, after all the trauma Kirk had recently witnessed, the frustration and anger got the better of him for a few moments and he had an altogether normal and human moment of genuine fury. It doesn’t have to be (and is not improved by being) anything more than that. I did a detailed analysis of the sequence in the film (or at least the DVD version in my possession) in an earlier thread, but just for laughs this time I dug out my copy of the novelization, by Vonda McIntyre. In the relevant passage, Tyrell has just killed himself instead of obeying Khan’s order to kill Kirk and Chekov has managed to barely fight off the Ceti eel. Khan starts to steal the Genesis Torpedo and Kirk tries to blast it with a phaser before transport is complete but cannot since David Marcus is in the way (this was acted out in the film but not, I thought, very clearly). Then this passage: > [@](#): > > Jim fired. The phaser beam passed through the empty space where the torpedo has been, and sizzled against the stone. > > Jim Kirk wanted to scream. He barely restrained himself from smashing his fist against the cave wall in pure frustration. He had only one chance left. > > He found Terrell’s communicator. > > “Khan, you have Genesis, but you don’t have me! You’ll never get me, Khan! You’re too frightened to come down here to kill me!” > > “I’ve done far worse than kill you, Admiral. I’ve hurt you. I wish to savor the hurt for a little time.” > > “So much for all your oaths and promises, so much for your vow - to your wife!” > > “You should not speak of my wife, James Kirk. She never wanted me to take my revenge. So now I will grant her wish. I will not kill you.” > > “You’re a coward, Khan!” > > “I will leave you, as you left me. But no one will ever find you. You are buried alive, marooned in the middle of a dead planet. Forever.” > > “Khan-” > > “As for your ship, it is powerless. In a moment, I shall blow it out of the heavens.” > > “_Khan!_” > > "Good-bye, ‘Admiral.’ " Underline emphasis added. I see nothing in this and nothing was mentioned in the DVD’s director commentary to suggest “fake anger” was ever an intention on the part of the film’s writer, director or William Shatner. If someone knows where I could see a shooting script that lends some support to the idea (which I didn’t hear about until at least 20 years after the film’s release), I’d like to see it, but I’d likely still reject it, not least because it robs the Kirk character of a significant dramatic moment that ties in nicely with the movie’s theme of the things we lose as we age. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/83 "2014-04-17T11:54:00Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Not to get all nitpicky (well, that’s not entirely true. This is the SD-it’s ALL about the nitpicky) but where did you get the hundreds figure? As far as I can tell from the movie dialog, only Peter Preston died. > > Why Scotty carried him to the bridge, like a cat bringing home a dead bird, rather than take him directly to sickbay, is a question for another time. I thought it was in the novelization, but I can’t find my copy. So I’ll retract that part of the post, but I stand by the rest of it, as more elegantly described by **Brian Ekers** above - even though Kirk knew he was going to be rescued shortly, he still had enormous frustration and anger towards Khan at that moment - ship horribly damaged, lab full of people dead, at least one death on his own ship, who just happened to be the beloved teenage nephew of one of his best and oldest friends, another Starfleet officer just suicided to save Kirk’s life, Chekov’s fate unknown, just found out he has a son - yeah, Jim Kirk wasn’t cool and collected. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/84 "2014-04-18T18:40:43Z")
> [@Morgyn](#): > > How much radiation would someone have to absorb to become incapacitated or killed that quickly? Wouldn’t it be more being burned than being poisoned? Here’s some [information](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acute_radiation_syndrome) on Earthly radiation damage. Looks like 30+ Gy causes almost immediate symptoms. For all I know, Warp drives might produce radiation that is much more potent (anti-protons, anyone?). ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/85 "2014-04-18T18:58:43Z")
as to the infamous Khan scream - Kirk knew that Enterprise _would_ be repaired (to a degree) within a shorter time frame - he did not know if Khan would find or destroy her before it was done. Enterprise managed to stay hidden during the intervening time frame. He was trying to goad Khan to act rash and either beam him (kirk) to Reliant or Khan down there - it was a gambit that did not work. Later (2 hours) - after enterprise is repaired and Kirk is back on board - Kirk again goads khan, and this time it does work. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/86 "2014-04-18T19:08:13Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > Here’s some [information](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acute_radiation_syndrome) on Earthly radiation damage. Looks like 30+ Gy causes almost immediate symptoms. For all I know, Warp drives might produce radiation that is much more potent (anti-protons, anyone?). Also, that’s the effects of radiation on human physiology. The effects of radiation on Vulcan physiology is pretty much up to the writer’s imagination. ---
**Author:** ![toastie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3be4f8/32.png) [@toastie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toastie)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/87 "2014-04-18T20:55:36Z")
> [@Tanbarkie](#): > > Anyone who thinks that the ending comprises a plot hole because Kirk didn’t go himself has, I think, missed the point of Kirk’s arc in the film. Kirk would never knowingly go to his death the way Spock did - not because he isn’t the self-sacrificing type, but because _he doesn’t believe in no win scenarios_. Up until the moment he sees Spock in the engine room, he’s still the same Jim Kirk who rigged the Kobayashi Maru, the one that believes there’s always a way to squirrel out of any situation unscathed. He only has to figure out what it is. Notice how, in what I quoted above, that his reaction at the mains coming back online is an immediate assumption that one of his galant crew has, once again, found a last-minute miracle that will save his ship and crew. He’s Jim Kirk, dammit. No win scenarios are for other people. > > This reflects what has always been the fundamental difference between Kirk and Spock. Both men are heroes, and both men are brilliant. But Kirk’s methodology has always been about figuring out the impossible solution, while Spock’s has been a dispassionate analysis of the situation, determining what needs to be done, and then doing it. Think of Spock’s line: “I never took the Kobayashi Maru test. What do you think of my solution?” And compare how he solves the no win scenario with how Kirk did. > > That’s the whole point of the ending - hell, the whole friggin’ theme of the movie. James T. Kirk, the ageless, indomitable captain who never once had to truly grapple with mortality, whose reaction to the most extreme adversity has been to always, always find an unexpected way out, is finally forced (kicking and screaming, at least mentally) to come face to face with the inevitability of death. And in doing so, he finally transcends the Jim Kirk that scoffed at the no win scenario and comes to terms with his own mortality. I agree with this except for this point. Kirk has previously ordered Spock on suicide missions before, and presumably would have again had he known what was happening. In the episode “The Immunity Syndrome”, someone needs to pilot a shuttle into the giant space amoeba to figure out how to kill it. Spock and McCoy argue about who will fly the shuttle. Kirk tells Spock: “I’m sorry”, and McCoy gloats because he thinks he gets to go. But Kirk stops McCoy, because Kirk has just ordered Spock - as the best qualified person to save the ship - on a mission of certain death. If anything the movie writers give us a bit of a cop out. Which is the better ending? Kirk learns the meaning of sacrifice because Spock knowingly chooses his death. Or Kirk learns the meaning of sacrifice because he orders Spock to his death, and finally for once, isn’t let off the hook. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/88 "2014-04-18T21:18:07Z")
I kinda gathered Kirk felt like Charles Darnay after Sydney Carton knocks him out to take his place at the guillotine. ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/89 "2014-04-18T21:21:06Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I kinda gathered Kirk felt like Charles Darnay after Sydney Carton knocks him out to take his place at the guillotine. Yet Spock’s final words are even better and more moving than Carton’s. So many feels. Take that, Dickens! 😛 😢 ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/90 "2014-04-18T22:15:56Z")
> [@OneCentStamp](#): > > Yet Spock’s final words are even better and more moving than Carton’s. So many feels. Take that, Dickens! 😛 😢 Even if the lines got transferred to Kirk (dialog stealer!) it’s as if he is saying them about/for Spock. We need more sci fi movies with this much depth! (and they didn’t even give a credit to Dickens - not even an “additional dialog by”.) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/91 "2014-04-18T22:52:57Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > We need more sci fi movies with this much depth! (and they didn’t even give a credit to Dickens - not even an “additional dialog by”.) Apropos of fuck-all, I remember that for years I was confused about a 1959 Warner cartoon called _A Witch’s Tangled Hare_, which very loosely adapts _MacBeth_ and has a Shakespeare-like character wandering through and taking notes. When Bugs Bunny finally talks to him, he admits that’s he’s _not_ Shakespeare; his name is actually Sam Crubish. For a long time afterward, I somehow thought that character’s name was Sam _Taylor_, the “additional dialogue by” guy from 1929’s _The Taming of the Shrew_ and the joke was a reference to a longstanding Hollywood legend. When I rewatched the cartoon much later on (this one doesn’t seem to get as much airtime as other, possibly more kid-friendly works), I was left wondering - who the hell, if anyone, is Sam Crubish? ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2014, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/92 "2014-04-19T02:36:01Z")
Is Captain Archer really Sam Beckett as a Leap In? And would Captain Quantum be in Ziggy’s holding cell? . ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2014, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/93 "2014-04-19T02:49:52Z")
> [@AncientHumanoid](#): > > Is Captain Archer really Sam Beckett as a Leap In? > > And would Captain Quantum be in Ziggy’s holding cell? > . Sam Beckett leapt into a Federation starship Captain, and has absolutely no fucking idea what to do. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2014, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/94 "2014-04-19T13:49:11Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Sam Beckett leapt into a Federation starship Captain, and has absolutely no fucking idea what to do. Well now he’s leapt into an NCIS agent - In New Orleans - and he still doesn’t know what to do. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2014, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/95 "2014-04-19T20:48:35Z")
Drink heavily, fit right in. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2014, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/96 "2014-04-20T04:10:04Z")
More tranya…? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2014, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/97 "2014-04-20T12:39:59Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > More tranya…? Romulan Ale. Quark got me a price on fifty cases. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2014, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/98 "2014-04-20T13:31:40Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Romulan Ale. > Quark got me a price on fifty cases. Note to the Galley - Romulan Ale no longer to be served at diplomatic functions. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2014, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/99 "2014-04-20T13:47:42Z")
That’s an outrage! ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2014, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182/100 "2014-04-20T13:49:04Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Note to the Galley - Romulan Ale no longer to be served at diplomatic functions. The Captain was obviously not in his cups when he said that, poor man. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-ii-wrath-of-khan-question-re-ending/686182.md?page=6)