# Star Trek question--What was "Kobyashi Maru"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 19, 2001, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-question-what-was-kobyashi-maru/58599 "2001-03-19T16:23:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2001, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-question-what-was-kobyashi-maru/58599/1 "2001-03-19T16:23:41Z")
In the movie _ST VI: The Undiscovered Country_, during the night in the Klingon mine, what was Bones alluding to when he mentioned the “Kobyashi Maru”? I assume that’s the name of some ship, but I’m not well enough versed in Trek culture to understand the reference. Did I miss something in one of the earlier movies? Or was the Kobyashi Maru a ship in real history, perhaps from the Second World War? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2001, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-question-what-was-kobyashi-maru/58599/2 "2001-03-19T16:29:29Z")
Watch **Star Trek II : The Wrath of Khan**. The Kobayashi Maru is an imaginary ship used in a battle simulation. The situation it sets up puts the Captain-in-Training in a dilemma, either horn of which is unwinnable. Kirk is supposed to be the only trainee to “beat” the Kobayashi Maru simulation. To find out why, watch the movie. I suspect Nicholas Meyer, of the many authors of the screenplay, came up with this detail. It’s an interesting and believable addition to the Star Trek mythos, and says a lot about Kirk. “Maru” is the Japanese designation for ship. Presumably the Kobayashi Maru is a freighter (not a warship) from a region with a predominantly Japanese background. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2001, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-question-what-was-kobyashi-maru/58599/3 "2001-03-19T16:34:54Z")
[hijack] My ST2 pet peeve: People accuse Kirk of never having to face the no-win scenario, and that he cheated to avoid it. Hello? He took the test THREE TIMES! He only cheated the last time, guys. Bad screenwriters! Bad! Thank you. [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Rue\_DeDay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/41988e/32.png) [@Rue\_DeDay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rue_DeDay)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2001, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-question-what-was-kobyashi-maru/58599/4 "2001-03-19T17:01:57Z")
There’s a Star Trek novel…well I got the cheap paperback…titled _The Kobayashi Maru_. It’s by Julia Ecklar. It re-counts the test as taken by Kirk and Scotty and Sulu while the are stranded on an adrift shuttle craft. Also Kirsty Alley, as Lt.(?) Savik(also-?) takes it in _Star Trek Whatever: They Do Stuff_. And can you count Kirk’s “do-overs” as _really_ facing a no-win situation? In “The Next Generation” didn’t Wesley take the “Kobayashi Maru” test, but they changed it to a generic aptitude test rather than the specific scenario Kirk faced? ---
**Author:** ![Rue\_DeDay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/41988e/32.png) [@Rue\_DeDay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rue_DeDay)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2001, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-question-what-was-kobyashi-maru/58599/5 "2001-03-19T17:10:37Z")
Re-reading CalMeacham’s post I realized that’s when the girl from “Cheers” takes her test. Also the book is copyrighted 1989. So that’s after the movie too. (Isn’t it? I’m too lazy to do a search to find out.) The book does go into more depth on the test and the mindset of the takers. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2001, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-question-what-was-kobyashi-maru/58599/6 "2001-03-19T17:52:38Z")
Considerably later. ST II came out in the summer of 1982, seven years before the book you refer to. Books written after TV episiodes and movies tend to expand on themes and ideas contained in the movie or TV show. It’s similar to the wat myths are treated, and you can use the idea to date variations on myths. ---
**Author:** ![AWB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bb73d2/32.png) [@AWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AWB)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2001, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-question-what-was-kobyashi-maru/58599/7 "2001-03-19T18:05:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rue DeDay \* > \*\*In “The Next Generation” didn’t Wesley take the “Kobayashi Maru” test, but they changed it to a generic aptitude test rather than the specific scenario Kirk faced? \*\* In the episode “Coming of Age”, while waiting for part of the test, he sees two people trapped in a disaster area, and could only save one before the safety doors sealed the other to his doom, all while the doomed guy is pleading to be saved. Sort of like the “Kobahashi Maru”. Troi also faced this in the test to get command-line status (forget the episode name). In an engineering scenario, she thinks she’s failing to find a way to remotely fix a problem that will destroy the ship. She then sees that the fix is available, but only by ordering someone into a compartment to their ultimate death to fix it. Once she does this, she gets her full Commander status. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2001, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-question-what-was-kobyashi-maru/58599/8 "2001-03-19T20:54:53Z")
IIRC in Next Gen Picard states that the No Win Senario was dumped by Star Fleet Academy. IMO this was part of the Next Gen trying to seperate itself from the ‘classic’. In ST2 a cadet is supposed to take the test and realize that this may happen to him or her in space and then move on. They can re-take it but the computer sim is set up so that no matter what you do you will lose the battle. Ultimatly they are supposed to realize that 'risk is ``` our business. ``` Kirk never accepted that may lose. (Why the heck should he, he is Jim Kirk after all.) ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2001, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-question-what-was-kobyashi-maru/58599/9 "2001-03-19T23:18:30Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by AWB \* \*\* > [@](#): > > In the episode “Coming of Age”, while waiting for part of the test, he sees two people trapped in a disaster area, and could only save one before the safety doors sealed the other to his doom, all while the doomed guy is pleading to be saved. Sort of like the “Kobahashi Maru”. \*\* It could also be argued that the KM test is only given to those on a command track. (i.e., “Bones” would never have to take that test.) Wesley test is an entrance exam to the Academy, well before he would be committed to a command, science, medical or any other track. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Troi also faced this in the test to get command-line status (forget the episode name). In an engineering scenario, she thinks she’s failing to find a way to remotely fix a problem that will destroy the ship. She then sees that the fix is available, but only by ordering someone into a compartment to their ultimate death to fix it. Once she does this, she gets her full Commander status. \*\* True, but this isn’t a no-win situation. There is a win, albeit a very painful one. Of course, one could also argue that Starfleet scrapped the KM test in the 80+ years between Kirk’s Enterprise and Picard’s. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2001, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-question-what-was-kobyashi-maru/58599/10 "2001-03-19T23:56:41Z")
You may be interested in an earlier thread in which we discussed the meaning of both “maru” and “Kobayashi Maru” [In Japanese freighter names, what does MARU mean?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=33561) ---
**Author:** ![Snooooopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Snooooopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snooooopy)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2001, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-question-what-was-kobyashi-maru/58599/11 "2001-03-20T00:30:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rue DeDay \* > \*\*There’s a Star Trek novel…well I got the cheap paperback…titled _The Kobayashi Maru_. It’s by Julia Ecklar. It re-counts the test as taken by Kirk and Scotty and Sulu while the are stranded on an adrift shuttle craft. > \*\* I remember scanning that in the bookstore once … didn’t one of the crew members tackle the problem by ramming the bad guys’ ship or some other amusingly crude method? ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_Rhosis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sir\_Rhosis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Rhosis)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2001, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-question-what-was-kobyashi-maru/58599/12 "2001-03-20T04:39:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CalMeacham \* > \*\*Watch **Star Trek II : The Wrath of Khan**. The Kobayashi Maru is an imaginary ship used in a battle simulation. The situation it sets up puts the Captain-in-Training in a dilemma, either horn of which is unwinnable. Kirk is supposed to be the only trainee to “beat” the Kobayashi Maru simulation. To find out why, watch the movie. I suspect Nicholas Meyer, of the many authors of the screenplay, came up with this detail. \*\* I have long enjoyed CalMeacham’s science fiction posts, and his overwhelming erudition in this, and many other, areas. I cringe to correct his assumption… Assuming he was not lying, Jack B. Sowards, who is solely credited with the actual screenplay of “Khan,” in an interview in “Starlog” (I am old enough to remember when this mag was semi-legit), around the time of the movie’s release, stated that he named the Kobyashi (sp?) Maru scenario after his neighbors, a Japanese-American family (presumably named Kobyashi). I have heard that the uncredited rewrite Meyer performed basically dealt with Khan’s characterization, rather than major plot elements, but it is a muddy issue in “Trek” lore. Legend has it Meyer performed the rewrite over the course of a single weekend, and agreed beforehand that he would not seek co-writer status as long as he could fix the script. If only they made Trek movies like this one anymore. Sir ---
**Author:** ![Rue\_DeDay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/41988e/32.png) [@Rue\_DeDay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rue_DeDay)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2001, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-question-what-was-kobyashi-maru/58599/13 "2001-03-20T11:59:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Snooooopy \* > I remember scanning that in the bookstore once … didn’t one of the crew members tackle the problem by ramming the bad guys’ ship or some other amusingly crude method? \*\* Scotty blew up the Klingon ships by dropping a torp into their linked shields. They all blew up at once, only to have the computer send a truckload of more ships after him. This was after Scotty proved in real life (did I just type that? sheesh to me) that torping linked shields _wouldn’t_ make them all go boom. The computer was working under false information and ever-resourceful Scotty took advantage of it. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2001, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-question-what-was-kobyashi-maru/58599/14 "2001-03-20T12:52:55Z")
Sir Rhosis is too kind. I suggested that Meyer was responsible simply because it seemed like a typically Meyerian touch. I bow to Rhosis’ footnoted scholarship on this. ---
**Author:** ![\_Twitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/3d9bf3/32.png) [@\_Twitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_Twitch)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2001, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-question-what-was-kobyashi-maru/58599/15 "2001-03-20T17:17:53Z")
Was Kobyashi Maru invented by Star Trek? I have an old spectrum game here with the same name that predates ST:2. ---
**Author:** ![TheeGrumpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@TheeGrumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheeGrumpy)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2001, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-question-what-was-kobyashi-maru/58599/16 "2001-03-21T00:50:18Z")
Pardon me for saying so, but you are all WRONG! _Kobayashi Maru_ is a “3rd class neutronic fuel carrier with a crew of 81 and 300 passengers.” 😛 It was also a way for ST2 producer Harve Bennett to trick fans who heard rumors about Spock dying in the movie. They see the test scenario in the opening where _everyone_ dies (pretend), then are caught somewhat off-guard when Spock dies at the end (I still have to stifle a tear at that scene). –Grump “I am in control of my emotions!” y