# Star Trek Squire of Gothos, Speculation **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 28, 2010, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-squire-of-gothos-speculation/548330 "2010-07-28T17:27:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-squire-of-gothos-speculation/548330/61 "2010-07-30T14:24:34Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > What’s your point? Is the :rolleyes: directed at the NPG, or at the film? And why? The Nit Picker’s Guide got too, well, nit picky and I don’t value it as a reference. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2010, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-squire-of-gothos-speculation/548330/62 "2010-07-31T00:13:30Z")
The Romulan NZ is also an element in _The Way to Eden_, but I can understand someone missing it if they were distracted by the bleeding of their eyeballs and eardrums. The space-hippies hijack the ship, take it across the NZ and into actual Romulan space to find their Eden planet. No actual Romulans appear in the episode, but the implication we gotta get the heck outta here ASAP. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2010, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-squire-of-gothos-speculation/548330/63 "2010-07-31T01:13:42Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > So you’re dismissing the entire work because it also contains something not relevant to the issue at hand, which you find to be… silly, or something. No, that example isn’t silly: it indicates a lack of any desire to even try to make something make sense. They’re on the flippin’ holodeck. You think it matters whether the guns actually have bullets in them? Plus the nitpicks on the Q are easy: he LIES. It’s not like we have any other source but Q for anything about the Q species. People have this weird thing to think that, if a character says something, it must be true. But even if we take Q at his word, we can explain the “No humans” thing, since Amanda is not fully Human, and she’s not fully Q, which covers the rest. And if the Q were really omnipotent, they would also be omniscient, and thus the whole “Trial of Mankind” would have been pointless. BTW, this was written last night, before carnivorousplant responded. I just forgot to submit it. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2010, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-squire-of-gothos-speculation/548330/64 "2010-07-31T01:58:28Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > No, that example isn’t silly: it indicates a lack of any desire to even try to make something make sense. They’re on the flippin’ holodeck. You think it matters whether the guns actually have bullets in them? It’s still an error. Saying something like _it was the holodeck programmers that made the error_ is just fanwank, unless there is some reason to suppose that the writers did it deliberately. The holodeck is supposed to be an accurate simulation. If guns don’t work realistically, then it’s an error, unless it’s a fantasy setting, or there’s indication of a malfunction. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2010, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-squire-of-gothos-speculation/548330/65 "2010-07-31T02:07:12Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > The holodeck is supposed to be an accurate simulation. If guns don’t work realistically, then it’s an error, unless it’s a fantasy setting, or there’s indication of a malfunction. No, the guy reporting a nit pick was in error. There are some two hundred rounds of spent .45 casings rolling around on the floor making a noise and the nit wanker thought it was a spring in the tommy gun making a noise. He just pulled something out of his ass and it was posted on the Nit Picker web site. And I guess if you take the safeties off the holodeck you can replicate a real tommy gun with real live Audie Murphy ammo. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2010, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-squire-of-gothos-speculation/548330/66 "2010-07-31T02:12:47Z")
Didn’t he do a follow-up book with various corrections to previous nits? This may have been one such. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2010, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-squire-of-gothos-speculation/548330/67 "2010-07-31T02:13:56Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Didn’t he do a follow-up book with various corrections to previous nits? This may have been one such. Could be, but he published with errors, he wasn’t to be trusted. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2010, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-squire-of-gothos-speculation/548330/68 "2010-07-31T02:26:28Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I think the most powerful alien was Kevin in the Survivors. A creature so powerful that he wiped out an entire species (50 billion) everywhere with a single thought. > > Even the Q would be terrified of him. That’s one guy you don’t want to piss off. Kevin was a Douwd. > [The Survivors (episode) | Memory Alpha | Fandom](http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/The_Survivors_%28episode%29) > The Survivors > > > [@](#): > > > > The Enterprise responds to a distress call from Rana IV, a Federation colony that is under attack from an unknown alien ship. When they arrive, they find the entire surface of the planet destroyed, save for a single house and two occupants. I’m not sure about that. I think any of the “God” like Continuum species like the Q, Organians, etc. could probably pull the same stunt if they wanted to. In one of the “Q” novels there is a malevolent being called “0” introduced that even Q is wary of. He is presented as the leader/boss of several not so nice entity level powers originally presented in ST TOS and the movies. It takes the combined effort of the whole Q to build a wall that will keep him out of our galaxy. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2010, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-squire-of-gothos-speculation/548330/69 "2010-07-31T02:36:39Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So there’s a page explaining the mathematics of Lagrange points? FUCK THAT SHIT! They have a whole page on _Skeletor_! How can you POSSIBLY take them SERIOUSLY?!?!?!?! eyeroll-eyeroll-eyeroll I don’t much like wikipedia either, but I didn’t mean to dis a book you like, just as I’m sure you didn’t mean to dis a Trek I liked. I apologize if I gave offense. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2010, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-squire-of-gothos-speculation/548330/70 "2010-07-31T03:11:06Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > It’s still an error. Saying something like _it was the holodeck programmers that made the error_ is just fanwank, unless there is some reason to suppose that the writers did it deliberately. The holodeck is supposed to be an accurate simulation. If guns don’t work realistically, then it’s an error, unless it’s a fantasy setting, or there’s indication of a malfunction. First off, I said nothing about it being a programming error. Second, Star Trek, and especially the holodeck, is the very epitome of a fantasy setting. Third, there is enough information on screen to make it make sense, whether the writers meant to do it or not. Calling it an error is refusing to engage in the movie itself, and an unwillingness to suspend one’s disbelief. One should not intentionally try to find flaws in something, without also trying to find solutions. There’s a reason why “nitpicking” has such a negative connotation. Most report errors they see without even giving them a moment of thought. If they can’t work at the overarching level, instead of at the completely banal level, there’s no reason to accept that they can analyze more complicated issues like characterization of a species. The Q’s characterization doesn’t go off the rails until Voyager, and then only when our Q tries to seduce Janeway. Up until then, there are no actual contradictions to their character. (But, yes, being able to go into their dimension was a much bigger mischaracterization. When Q did it to Janeway, it is acceptable since he still had powers. When Suzie Q did it? Absolutely not.) ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2010, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-squire-of-gothos-speculation/548330/71 "2010-07-31T03:53:44Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > BTW, this was written last night, before carnivorousplant responded. I just forgot to submit it. How did _ **I** _ get into it? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2010, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-squire-of-gothos-speculation/548330/72 "2010-07-31T05:04:25Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I don’t much like wikipedia either, but I didn’t mean to dis a book you like, just as I’m sure you didn’t mean to dis a Trek I liked. > I apologize if I gave offense. 🙂 Oh, my criticisms of ST:TNG are quite intentional and I have no hesitation whatsoever in pointing out the conceptual laziness involved in writing the Q characters and the inconsistency in their appearances. As for my reference to wikipedia, it in no way indicated I took personal offense at a criticism of Farrand’s work. I was merely attempting to express in a thoroughly sarcastic fashion that I found your attempt to dismiss Farrand’s work was itself eminently dismissible. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-squire-of-gothos-speculation/548330/73 "2010-08-03T13:07:31Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > > [@BigT](#): > > > > BTW, this was written last night, before carnivorousplant responded. I just forgot to submit it. > > How did _ **I** _ get into it? Because I was responding to a question that was asked of you. Had I already seen your response, I wouldn’t have bothered to give mine. Or at least I would have expressed it differently. And, truthfully, I don’t hate the guide as much as I implied (or even outright stated). But I don’t respect it as a valid criticism of the work, and hate it when other people think I should. I was the guy on [Nitpickers.com](http://Nitpickers.com) who never submiited a nitpick (and thus could never vote), but offered explanations. To me, that is the fun part of nitpicking. Trying to find explanations that work, and then figuring out why those wouldn’t work, either. Not declaring everything that has a “mistake” is bad. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-squire-of-gothos-speculation/548330/74 "2010-08-03T20:15:23Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > The Romulan NZ is also an element in _The Way to Eden_, but I can understand someone missing it if they were distracted by the bleeding of their eyeballs and eardrums. The space-hippies hijack the ship, take it across the NZ and into actual Romulan space to find their Eden planet. No actual Romulans appear in the episode, but the implication we gotta get the heck outta here ASAP. Whereas if you have a deskbound commodore in temporary command of the _Enterprise_, you have Romulans out the wazoo as soon as you step over that line, and you mysteriously can’t outrun them even at warp speed - although, to even things up, you can now stand a whole bunch of those mega-torpedoes that so terrified you last time around without sustaining any real damage. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-squire-of-gothos-speculation/548330/75 "2010-08-03T21:59:51Z")
Well, you can fanwank that one a bit to explain inconsistencies in _The Way to Eden_ vs. _The Deadly Years_: The region of space containing the “Eden” planet is a backwater, while the shortcut taken to Starbase 10 cuts close to well-populated and -patrolled Romulan space. One can imagine landing in a remote part of Vladivostok and wandering around for a bit without being noticed. Less so in taking a stroll through East Berlin. The Romulans are as trophy-hungry as they were in _The Enterprise Incident_, hence were not using the mega-torps from _Balance of Terror_ since they wanted to disable and capture the Enterprise instead of destroying it outright. The lack of mega-torps in any appearance after _Balance of Terror_ could be explicable if one assumes they were found to have problems or could only be fitted on sublight starships or the vessel in that episode was a prototype and the technology was abandoned when it failed to return. Or that the patrol ships that intercepted the Enterprise in _Deadly Years_ weren’t equipped with mega-torps. I figure these aren’t dealbreakers; I wouldn’t assume all Romulan space was patrolled with equal energy, nor that all Romulan ships had identical armament, but Q was established instantly as omnipotent, which doesn’t really leave you anywhere to go unless he’s suddenly… not ominpotent. And the Q have been observing humanity… but also participating in it. And humans are as amoebae to them… until they suddenly become romantically attractive. Now, I could buy that Q just has some alienesque sense of humour and is toying with the humans for amusement (not too far removed from what the episode’s writer is doing, I guess), but omnipotent characters suck, period. I’d disliked the Q and its infantile wish-fulfillment nature, but I began holding the writers in severe contempt (and pretty much wrote off _Voyager_ for keeps) during that whole “civil war” thing, where a battle within the continuum takes the form of Union vs Confederacy and a human holding a Springfield musket has the _power of GOD in his hands!!_ ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-squire-of-gothos-speculation/548330/76 "2010-08-04T00:08:19Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I began holding the writers in severe contempt (and pretty much wrote off _Voyager_ for keeps) during that whole “civil war” thing, where a battle within the continuum takes the form of Union vs Confederacy and a human holding a Springfield musket has the _power of GOD in his hands!!_ Come on, they were throwing black holes at each other with their bare hands, but Q was manipulating time and space to make some metaphor the humans could understand. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-squire-of-gothos-speculation/548330/77 "2010-08-04T00:22:22Z")
Yeah, but _why?_ It’s like diverting your attention in the middle of D-Day to try to involve your toddler grandchildren (and of course you’d have to dumb down the nature of the conflict so they could understand it, and you’ll have to dedicate some effort to protecting them) so they won’t feel left out. The problem was wanting it both ways - the Q are omnipotent and eternal, but also have easily-graspable methods and motivations to the point where recruiting humans to participate seems like a good idea. “Uh-oh! That Q over there has _humans_ on his side! I’ll have to dedicate an entire nanosecond to eliminating them.” And then after all that when the humans supposedly play a critical role in the conflict, one of the Q doesn’t blink his eyes I-Dream-of-Jeannie style and send Voyager home? Utter bollocks. The writers should have left the Q out entirely, or at most portrayed them as forces of nature who were largely indifferent to humanity. The Organians were a little better - vastly powerful, but they found humans (and Klingons) icky and wanted nothing to do with them. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-squire-of-gothos-speculation/548330/78 "2010-08-04T01:07:32Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Yeah, but _why?_ It’s like diverting your attention in the middle of D-Day to try to involve your toddler grandchildren (and of course you’d have to dumb down the nature of the conflict so they could understand it, and you’ll have to dedicate some effort to protecting them) so they won’t feel left out. I thought there was some vital quality the humans brought to the conflict. It’s been a long time since I watched it and I don’t have access to my stuff for a while. Did it center about one Q wanting to be allowed to die? And I don’t think it was dumbed down, I think that instead of a black powder rifle Paris & Company had some really nasty weapons that they wouldn’t be able to use otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-squire-of-gothos-speculation/548330/79 "2010-08-04T01:16:45Z")
Ah, the human spirit. Another story element lazy writers like because they don’t have to define, defend or limit it. Want to make sure the good guys win the battle? Human spirit. Want to express some kind of anti-technology message? Human spirit. Want the new-agey character to out-argue those know-it-all scientists? Human spirit. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-squire-of-gothos-speculation/548330/80 "2010-08-04T01:20:09Z")
I had a witty Admiral Janeway reply, but I’ll just back off. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-squire-of-gothos-speculation/548330.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-squire-of-gothos-speculation/548330.md?page=5)