# Star Trek -- the "I saw it" thread \*\*SPOILERS\*\* **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 7, 2009, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640 "2009-05-07T08:13:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/341 "2009-05-14T20:14:58Z")
> [@BlueOhio](#): > > Riverside was named as the Star Fleet base he motorcycled to, wasn’t it? > > As for the canyon/gouge, it reminded me of something the Xindi did in the tv show Enterprise, but I didn’t watch it well enough to know any details. Any Enterprise watchers remember? (I think it was the Xindi anyway). The Xindi circumcised the US by cutting a large trench into Florida with a giant laser. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/342 "2009-05-14T20:24:12Z")
> [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](#): > > I’ll. TRY.. to remember. I’ll. try. You’re a gentleman and a scholar. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Bird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Little\_Bird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Bird)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/343 "2009-05-14T20:28:21Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > About the canyon. I’m pretty sure it was artificial. It looks like a rock quarry. I don’t know if Iowa has rock quarries or not mind you. It was totally a quarry. Iowa is set on top of some lovely limestone, gives us some very nice drinking water. My parents’ property used to be a limestone quarry, gives us a nice view in the summer and the possibility of sledding off a 60 foot cliff in the winter. Good times. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/344 "2009-05-14T20:28:53Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So where were they for 25 years? Lurking? Skulking? Killing time by posting on message boards? Hanging out in interstellar space, five light years from the nearest system? Space is BIG. You could hide entire planets in the dark gulf between the stars and no-one would ever know they’re there. Besides, they had nothing to do in this timeline except wait for Spock. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/345 "2009-05-14T20:30:43Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > No, I’m right, and you spitting blood in impotent fury until you go into shock won’t change that, try though you might. You’re the one assuming that the guy who wants to destroy the Federation does it by randomly shooting the Federation headquarters. It’s pure stupidity to assume he chose it by chance. If you wanted to destroy the US, wouldn’t Washington DC be an obvious target? You want to hate this, I get it. And you’re really stretching on this one. 😃 > [@](#): > > So where were they for 25 years? Lurking? Skulking? Killing time by posting on message boards? They were waiting. What’s so hard to understand about that? I’d assume by the way that they were somewhere in the Klingon Neutral Zone, since they came out of hiding in preparation for Spock’s arrival and (as Uhura heard) destroyed 49 Klingon ships that presumably detected them in their space. > [@](#): > > Now, _that_ would be a plot twist! Say’s you. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/346 "2009-05-14T20:37:57Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > If you wanted to destroy the US, wouldn’t Washington DC be an obvious target? Nero was shooting at Annapolis by that metaphor. DC would be Paris. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/347 "2009-05-14T20:40:53Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Hanging out in interstellar space, five light years from the nearest system? > > Space is BIG. You could hide entire planets in the dark gulf between the stars and no-one would ever know they’re there. > > Besides, they had nothing to do in this timeline except wait for Spock. Well, they coulda gone home to Romulus and told them about the impending supernova, or they coulda got rich betting on sports or something. How Nero kept his crew’s loyalty for 25 years (my girlfriend pointed out that seemed to be no women aboard his ship) is unexplained. Besdies, if they wanted to destroy Vulcan and Earth (and presumably Andoria and Tellar as well), they certainly had the power to do so already. Just go to each planet and trash all the major cities. Don’t worry about the contemporary defenses - by all indications you can brush them off with trivial effort. How and why were they in Klingon space, anyway? Aside from throwing it in as a nod to similar references to the first and fourth films, that doesn’t make any sense. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/348 "2009-05-14T20:44:12Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Sure, explorers… that hold battle simulations and have ranks and courts of inquiry and ships bristling with weapons. If these guys are _not_ the military, then where _is_ the military? > > I stand by all my criticisms. Starfleet _is_ the Federation’s military; it just has alot of non-military functions. In addition to being the Navy it’s also; the Coast Guard, NASA, NOAA Corps, State Department, etc. TOS always portrayed Starfleet as being very close to what we think of a military. Much more than TNG or VOY. It’s not unreasonable to assume that military customs and protocol will become much less formal over the next couple centuries. Having a 4th yr cadet (remember Kirk did 4 yrs in 3) skip five ranks and go straight into commanding a flagship is moronic. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/349 "2009-05-14T20:45:20Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > Nero was shooting at Annapolis by that metaphor. DC would be Paris. Fair enough. Star Fleet is the body that beats back Romulan expansion and I certainly think they’ve earned enough casual Romulan enmity to be the target. Although Federation HQ in Paris would have been equally valid. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/350 "2009-05-14T20:47:52Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Starfleet _is_ the Federation’s military; it just has alot of non-military functions. In addition to being the Navy it’s also; the Coast Guard, NASA, NOAA Corps, State Department, etc. TOS always portrayed Starfleet as being very close to what we think of a military. Much more than TNG or VOY. It’s not unreasonable to assume that military customs and protocol will become much less formal over the next couple centuries. Having a 4th yr cadet (remember Kirk did 4 yrs in 3) skip five ranks and go straight into commanding a flagship is moronic. How he got the position for the duration of the emergency is explained in the film. As for how he got it after the fact, I assume it was political pressure to reward the dudes who _saved the freaking federation_. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/351 "2009-05-14T20:49:49Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > You’re the one assuming that the guy who wants to destroy the Federation does it by randomly shooting the Federation headquarters. He _wasn’t_ shooting at Federation HQ. He just happened, by apparently the merest of coincidence, to drop the drill in it’s general vicinity. When the planet goes, it’s all moot anyway. > [@](#): > > It’s pure stupidity to assume he chose it by chance. I’m not assuming the character chose it by chance. I’m assuming the film’s producers chose it on purpose for reasons that have nothing to do with the plot. > [@](#): > > They were waiting. What’s so hard to understand about that? With all the options available to them, they chose to wait? They don’t need the red matter to effectively destroy a Federation with relatively inferior tech. They already demonstrate more than enough firepower to accomplish the goal on their own. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/352 "2009-05-14T20:50:38Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > As for how he got it after the fact, I assume it was political pressure to reward the dudes who _saved the freaking federation_. Notheless, he didn’t drive too well without experience; I’d thing he’d need a little practice before he could command a starship. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BlueOhio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/439d5e/32.png) [@BlueOhio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlueOhio)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/353 "2009-05-14T20:56:24Z")
I think it’s pretty clear that the drill was dropped near San Fran because it was the Fleet base. I don’t understand why that’s so hard to believe. And, as I mentioned before, it was the same locale as ST4, so it could also have been a reference to a past movie (like the apple Kirk’s eating - which seems really out of place as well, but we all know why it’s there). ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/354 "2009-05-14T20:59:21Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > He _wasn’t_ shooting at Federation HQ. He just happened, by apparently the merest of coincidence, to drop the drill in it’s general vicinity. When the planet goes, it’s all moot anyway. > > I’m not assuming the character chose it by chance. I’m assuming the film’s producers chose it on purpose for reasons that have nothing to do with the plot. You’re assuming the producers made the right decision for the wrong reasons? I find that unlikely. You have no evidence for that claim, but if you’d rather believe they hit a bullseye without looking, hey who am I to stand in your way. 😃 > [@](#): > > With all the options available to them, they chose to wait? They wanted Spock to see it. An obvious choice would have been to accelerate at relativistic (non warp) speeds until time dilation brought them 25 years ahead. Perhaps that’s what they did. > [@](#): > > They don’t need the red matter to effectively destroy a Federation with relatively inferior tech. They already demonstrate more than enough firepower to accomplish the goal on their own. Nero wanted defense codes from Pike before attacking the Federation Homeworld. He evidently felt he could take Vulcan, but the Fed HQ was a bit much. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/355 "2009-05-14T20:59:50Z")
> [@BlueOhio](#): > > I think it’s pretty clear that the drill was dropped near San Fran because it was the Fleet base. That’s poetic license. I don’t have a problem with it. ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/356 "2009-05-14T21:07:28Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > Nero was shooting at Annapolis by that metaphor. DC would be Paris. Well, if you really want to get geeky about it, Paris is where the executive branch of the Federation is based but San Francisco is home to the legislature. It’s also the site of Star Fleet headquarters (not just the academy), which means it’s the base for a large part of the Federation’s scientific, exploring, and diplomatic functions. It’s much more than the Federation’s Annapolis, and Paris is much less than the Federation’s DC. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, they coulda gone home to Romulus and told them about the impending supernova, Either way, Nero never sees his wife and child, so it’s kind of lose-lose for him. To an unhinged Romulan, revenge might seem like the best option. > [@](#): > > How Nero kept his crew’s loyalty for 25 years (my girlfriend pointed out that seemed to be no women aboard his ship) is unexplained. This is actually a reasonable complaint! Still, everyone they might feel they’d have no place in what to them is the past. Their world is gone. All they have is each other. (Cue strings.) As for no women, I don’t know, maybe going through the black hole turned them all gay. > [@](#): > > Besdies, if they wanted to destroy Vulcan and Earth (and presumably Andoria and Tellar as well), they certainly had the power to do so already. Just go to each planet and trash all the major cities. How, after seeing the movie and reading this thread, did you miss the fact that Nero wanted Spock to watch the destruction of his planet? It seems like you’re going in circles - deliberately. > [@](#): > > Don’t worry about the contemporary defenses - by all indications you can brush them off with trivial effort. At least in the case of Earth, they weren’t able to do this until they captured a Star Fleet captain from the right era. Now if you argued that it was silly for that captain to have information to render Earth completely defenseless you’d have a good point, but you once again chose to ignore a major _point plot_ - emphasized in the movie and discussed in this thread - in order to have an imaginary _plot hole_ to complain about. That’s what I call straining. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/357 "2009-05-14T21:10:11Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > You’re assuming the producers made the right decision for the wrong reasons? I find that unlikely. You have no evidence for that claim, but if you’d rather believe they hit a bullseye without looking, hey who am I to stand in your way. 😃 I don’t really care if it was a show for SFHQ or not - the only reason it introduces a plot hole is the reasonable expectation that Starfleet Academy would have weapons close at hand with which they could attack the drill, which was demonstrated to be quite vulnerable to attack. Instead, the Academy guys just gawk and stare and do nothing. > [@](#): > > They wanted Spock to see it. An obvious choice would have been to accelerate at relativistic (non warp) speeds until time dilation brought them 25 years ahead. Perhaps that’s what they did. I see no indication of it, and Nero is quite specific that they’d waited 25 years. I get that Romulans are supposed to passionate and all, but this is just stupid. > [@](#): > > Nero wanted defense codes from Pike before attacking the Federation Homeworld. He evidently felt he could take Vulcan, but the Fed HQ was a bit much. This is arguing over the minor details of a massively-ill-conceived plan. Nero has 150 years to warn his people about how to stop the supernova, but he’s concentrating on blaming Spock for not stopping the supernova? ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/358 "2009-05-14T21:15:01Z")
Never mind. Have at it. ---
**Author:** ![Interconnected\_Series\_of\_Tubes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/13edae/32.png) [@Interconnected\_Series\_of\_Tubes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Interconnected_Series_of_Tubes)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/359 "2009-05-14T21:17:14Z")
**Bryan Ekers** , I am genuinely curious about several of your criticisms - and wholeheartedly I respect your right as a fanboy to complain. Indeed the canon was trashed, although I personally thought it was a pretty good, _very_ good, reboot of the series. Anyways - why don’t you bring up these same complaints about the series itself? Certainly there are more than enough examples of unnecessarily elaborate planet-destroying mechanisms, jaw-dropping coincidence, and implausibly capable unhinged-yet-coldly-calculating-loyalty-accruing supervillians who monologue and gloat instead of using their moment of advantage until the computer systems come back online from temporal particle interference. While I thought the character development needed serious work, and felt Kirk was utterly underwhelming, it was still terrific fun. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/360 "2009-05-14T21:24:02Z")
> [@TWDuke](#): > > Either way, Nero never sees his wife and child, so it’s kind of lose-lose for him. To an unhinged Romulan, revenge might seem like the best option. He, and his entire crew, stay unhinged for 25 years? I suppose _maybe_ if they’d thrown in some nonsense about how what you were feeling at the moment you went through the black hole stayed with you (thus, if you were angry, you would stay angry)… > [@](#): > > How, after seeing the movie and reading this thread, did you miss the fact that Nero wanted Spock to watch the destruction of his planet? It seems like you’re going in circles - deliberately. But apparently Nero doesn’t want to _watch_ Spock watch the destruction of his planet, which seems odd. What’s the point of that? Why not just trash Earth and Vulcan right away and when Spock emerges, he can find both planets reduced to smoldering ruin. Heck, record it on video so when you capture Spock, you can make him watch it watch it on an endless loop? > [@](#): > > At least in the case of Earth, they weren’t able to do this until they captured a Star Fleet captain from the right era. That’s like the commander of a stealth bomber hesitating to attacking a World War I trench because he doesn’t know the password. Just attack, already. > [@](#): > > Now if you argued that it was silly for that captain to have information to render Earth completely defenseless you’d have a good point, but you once again chose to ignore a major _point plot_ - emphasized in the movie and discussed in this thread - in order to have an imaginary _plot hole_ to complain about. That’s what I call straining. If the plot point you’re referring to is Nero wanting Spock-prime to witness the destruction of Vulcan, it’s undermined by events in the movie itself. It takes no strain, or even effort, on my part to point this out. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640.md?page=19)