# Star Trek -- the "I saw it" thread \*\*SPOILERS\*\* **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 7, 2009, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640 "2009-05-07T08:13:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/361 "2009-05-14T21:29:20Z")
Re: the quarry–my shovel brigade comment was just a lame joke. I know that’s what it was _supposed_ to be, there’s even a sign to that effect. (But I’ve been to Riverside, and I didn’t see anything like that.) Besides, why have the Iowa location at all, since (in this timeline) Kirk isn’t even born there? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/362 "2009-05-14T21:33:39Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, they coulda gone home to Romulus and told them about the impending supernova, or they coulda got rich betting on sports or something. How Nero kept his crew’s loyalty for 25 years (my girlfriend pointed out that seemed to be no women aboard his ship) is unexplained. > > Besdies, if they wanted to destroy Vulcan and Earth (and presumably Andoria and Tellar as well), they certainly had the power to do so already. Just go to each planet and trash all the major cities. Don’t worry about the contemporary defenses - by all indications you can brush them off with trivial effort. 1. They had 130 years to warn Romulus about the supernova. No need to reveal themselves too soon. 2. I don’t know enough about Romulan psychology to answer your question about loyalty. 3. If they had destroyed Vulcan right away, they couldn’t have shown it to Spock, could they? ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/363 "2009-05-14T21:38:28Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > No, he’s not. Yes, he is. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/364 "2009-05-14T21:38:54Z")
> [@Interconnected\_Series\_of\_Tubes](#): > > **Bryan Ekers** , I am genuinely curious about several of your criticisms - and wholeheartedly I respect your right as a fanboy to complain. Indeed the canon was trashed, although I personally thought it was a pretty good, _very_ good, reboot of the series. I don’t mind the canon being trashed. I wish it had been trashed even _more_, to the point where it wouldn’t be certain that Kirk and Spock were destined to be soulmates. I’d be fine with Spock and Kirk having a genuine mutual dislike. Frankly, the notion that no matter how the timeline gets mangled, these two have a destiny together annoys me. Their mirror-universe counterparts were implied to not be the best of buddies, after all. > [@](#): > > Anyways - why don’t you bring up these same complaints about the series itself? Certainly there are more than enough examples of unnecessarily elaborate planet-destroying mechanisms, jaw-dropping coincidence, and implausibly capable unhinged-yet-coldly-calculating-loyalty-accruing supervillians who monologue and gloat instead of using their moment of advantage until the computer systems come back online from temporal particle interference. I can, and I have. I’m sure I’m on record on this board trashing all the recent Trek movies to various degrees (I’m quite fond of savaging _Insurrection_ and _Nemesis_) but I’ll also cheerfully defend Trek when they do something right. _Wrath of Khan_ remains one of my all-time favourite movies, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/365 "2009-05-14T21:40:22Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > Yes, he is. You may as well just skip to saying “Yes, he is, infinity plus one” for all it matters. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/366 "2009-05-14T22:01:20Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > He, and his entire crew, stay unhinged for 25 years? I suppose _maybe_ if they’d thrown in some nonsense about how what you were feeling at the moment you went through the black hole stayed with you (thus, if you were angry, you would stay angry)… They were single minded and fanatical. Their world was gone. And, since they’re physiologically Vulcan they feel emotions harder than Humans. > [@](#): > > But apparently Nero doesn’t want to _watch_ Spock watch the destruction of his planet, which seems odd. What’s the point of that? Why not just trash Earth and Vulcan right away and when Spock emerges, he can find both planets reduced to smoldering ruin. Heck, record it on video so when you capture Spock, you can make him watch it watch it on an endless loop? I thought you said you liked STII. Didn’t Khan do the same thing? Marooning people has a long and eminent pedigree. > [@](#): > > That’s like the commander of a stealth bomber hesitating to attacking a World War I trench because he doesn’t know the password. Just attack, already. Not even a little. In fact that’s an outright stupid comparison. Nero’s ship isn’t invulnerable, it’s really tough. And if he blundered into downtown Federationville he’d likely lose. He needed command codes for the defense network. Just because you can’t be bothered to actually watch the movie and listen to the dialogue doesn’t make it bad. It makes your criticism laughable. > [@](#): > > If the plot point you’re referring to is Nero wanting Spock-prime to witness the destruction of Vulcan, it’s undermined by events in the movie itself. It takes no strain, or even effort, on my part to point this out. In what way? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/367 "2009-05-14T22:28:17Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > They were single minded and fanatical. Their world was gone. And, since they’re physiologically Vulcan they feel emotions harder than Humans. They were miners, weren’t they? If this was some kind of cult-ship or ultra-elite military unit, maybe… As I figure it, the only reason for the 25-year wait is so James Kirk’s birth would be so dramatic that he was obviously a child of destiny. For some reason, though, this couldn’t be a formative event that happened during his childhood or early adulthood and makes him _want_ to join Starfleet. Nah, he has to be… _the star child!!!_ > [@](#): > > I thought you said you liked STII. Didn’t Khan do the same thing? Marooning people has a long and eminent pedigree. Different circumstances. Khan tells Kirk he’s going to sail off and trash the Enterprise and that will be sufficient for him. Khan is _satisfied_ by this. He doesn’t need Kirk to witness the destruction - he knows when to declare and celebrate victory. Khan had 15 years of misery to sustain his anger in a desperate bid for survival, all the while getting more bitter because “_Admiral_ Kirk never bothered to check on our progress”. Above all, Khan was not an idiot. Compare this to marooning Spock-prime, in a place where he could easily freeze to death, or get eaten by the local fauna, or make his way to the Federation outpost (why he’s hanging around in a cave instead of heading to this outpost as all possible speed to contact Starfleet and raise the alarm is yet another unexplained plot hole). There’s an excellent chance Spock-prime will be dead before Vulcan gets trashed, and what’s the point of that? > [@](#): > > Not even a little. In fact that’s an outright stupid comparison. Nero’s ship isn’t invulnerable, it’s really tough. And if he blundered into downtown Federationville he’d likely lose. He needed command codes for the defense network. Just because you can’t be bothered to actually watch the movie and listen to the dialogue doesn’t make it bad. It makes your criticism laughable. He trashed six Federation starships in a matter of minutes and dozens of Klingon vessels with no apparent damage whatsoever. What movie were _you_ watching? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/368 "2009-05-14T22:37:53Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > They were miners, weren’t they? If this was some kind of cult-ship or ultra-elite military unit, maybe… As I figure it, the only reason for the 25-year wait is so James Kirk’s birth would be so dramatic that he was obviously a child of destiny. For some reason, though, this couldn’t be a formative event that happened during his childhood or early adulthood and makes him _want_ to join Starfleet. Nah, he has to be… _the star child!!!_ Yes, exclamation points make your baseless, nitpicking substantive. A half dozen times in this thread you’ve shown that _you didn’t even listen to the dialogue_ from the movie. You \*want \*to hate the movie, that’s fine. Don’t pretend that you’ve actually though about it. > [@](#): > > Different circumstances. Khan tells Kirk he’s going to sail off and trash the Enterprise and that will be sufficient for him. Khan is _satisfied_ by this. He doesn’t need Kirk to witness the destruction - he knows when to declare and celebrate victory. > > Khan had 15 years of misery to sustain his anger in a desperate bid for survival, all the while getting more bitter because “_Admiral_ Kirk never bothered to check on our progress”. > > Above all, Khan was not an idiot. Compare this to marooning Spock-prime, in a place where he could easily freeze to death, or get eaten by the local fauna, or make his way to the Federation outpost (why he’s hanging around in a cave instead of heading to this outpost as all possible speed to contact Starfleet and raise the alarm is yet another unexplained plot hole). There’s an excellent chance Spock-prime will be dead before Vulcan gets trashed, and what’s the point of that? My guess is he sought shelter from the giant ice spiders. > [@](#): > > He trashed six Federation starships in a matter of minutes and dozens of Klingon vessels with no apparent damage whatsoever. What movie were _you_ watching? And he was still afraid of the Federation defenses. What does that tell you? I tell you what, thought experiment. What can hold a bigger gun, something that has to fly around or something stationary? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/369 "2009-05-14T23:00:19Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Yes, exclamation points make your baseless, nitpicking substantive. No, they (plus the italics, mustn’t forget them) make it sarcastic. > [@](#): > > A half dozen times in this thread you’ve shown that _you didn’t even listen to the dialogue_ from the movie. You \*want \*to hate the movie, that’s fine. Don’t pretend that you’ve actually though about it. I wanted very much to _like_ this movie, but although there were some likable aspects to it, it wasn’t overall likable enough for me to turn my brain off and just let the plot holes wash over me. Your standards, obviously, vary. > [@](#): > > My guess is he sought shelter from the giant ice spiders. Yeah, it’d be a shame if after waiting 25 years, Spock-prime didn’t get to see Vulcan go poof at the moment it happened, because he’d either been eaten by an ice-spider or was hiding from same. > [@](#): > > And he was still afraid of the Federation defenses. What does that tell you? That there’s a plot hole. The writers want Nero’s ship to be nigh-unstoppable when it’s trashing faceless supporting characters by the thousands (or billions) and yet have some plot-device reason for them to take Pike out of the way to clear the way for Kirk. I realize “Earth defenses” are kept deliberately vague, but seriously, _was_ the code extracted from Pike a “roll over and play dead” command, because it makes no sense any other way. Are these defenses impressive or not? If not, Nero doesn’t need the code. If so, there should have been at least some token display of resistance, especially against the drill unit itself which _as shown in the movie_ does not require an extremely advanced set of counter-measures. Just have some guys jetpack up to it and blast away with the phasers. Sure, there might be a couple of inept Romulan guards to watch out for, but omelets and eggs, people. > [@](#): > > I tell you what, thought experiment. What can hold a bigger gun, something that has to fly around or something stationary? Well, if there were Earth-based batteries capable of firing on ships in orbit, where were they? Are all they all manned by bureaucrats who steadfastly refused to fire because the correct identification code was given? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/370 "2009-05-14T23:03:23Z")
> [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](#): > > I got a real sense of “fate” from this movie. One could say the writers are expressing “where you be is where you at” and therefore _something_ had to delay the Enterprise’s arrival, whether it be Kirk’s and Uhura’s new information or Sulu’s brainfart, or both. According to an interview I just saw, “fate” is entirely the point. > [@MTV Interview](#): > > MTV: Out of the entire universe, how do Elder Spock and Kirk happen to get stranded on the same planet? Are we expected to believe it’s just a coincidence? > > Kurtzman: One of the things we’re playing to is the theme of destiny … the idea that it wasn’t actually random chance. It seems like random chance if you run into Spock in that cave, but it wasn’t. And in some way, the time stream is trying to mend itself. > > MTV: And how about Scotty? Is it a coincidence that he happens to be on that moon as well? > > Kurtzman: It goes back to the idea that the time stream is trying to mend itself. These characters are essentially destined to find each other in one way or another — and that fate is literally bringing them together. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/371 "2009-05-14T23:12:50Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > 1. They had 130 years to warn Romulus about the supernova. No need to reveal themselves too soon. > > 2. I don’t know enough about Romulan psychology to answer your question about loyalty. > > 3. If they had destroyed Vulcan right away, they couldn’t have shown it to Spock, could they? Along these lines, Nero _did_ say he spent 25 years plotting his revenge. So there we go. We know what he was up to. I suppose eating and pooping and maintaining and maybe even upgrading the ship might took up some time. As a mining ship, I’m guessing they didn’t have a temporal physicist onboard, and their computers may not have been designed to be a big help there. Nero already fucked up time by killing Kirk’s father. He’s lucky he didn’t accidently disappear himself in the process. In any event, if he wants to get revenge on the same Spock he came with, best lay really low and try not to fuck up time any more. Who knows what could happen? I’m sure past Romulus was not at all happy about a Romulan ship breaking the truce and wiping out a Federation vessel, and if Nero showed up and took responsibility who’s to say the Romulans would greet him with open arms? They may not want the time stream fucked with. Who’s to say Nero isn’t constantly risking some future temporal police showing up? Maybe he doesn’t understand the difference between changing your own time stream or entering/creating an entirely alternate reality? He needs to wait for that red matter to show up. It was stated in the movie the technology to use red matter to make black holes also can be used for traveling through time and space. If you can’t make your own RM, it’s best to not mess around too much until Spock shows up with it. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/372 "2009-05-14T23:25:34Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > They could speak with Trekkers. Now, that’s just cruel. ---
**Author:** ![BlueOhio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/439d5e/32.png) [@BlueOhio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlueOhio)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/373 "2009-05-14T23:42:21Z")
We should also keep in mind that Nero was freaking nuts. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2009, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/374 "2009-05-14T23:55:45Z")
This thread is why people make fun of us. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/375 "2009-05-15T00:16:37Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > He _wasn’t_ shooting at Federation HQ. He just happened, by apparently the merest of coincidence, to drop the drill in it’s general vicinity. When the planet goes, it’s all moot anyway. Actually, as someone upthread said, a tooltip popped out with Starfleet’s insignia. And there you have it. Also Nero knocked off the Klingons after “a lightning storm was reported in the Neutral Zone.” I’m not a big enough nerd to know if this answers your question, but this is what I heard. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/376 "2009-05-15T00:19:24Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > You’re a gentleman and a scholar. Got it: 12091. ◄12091 to be more exact. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/377 "2009-05-15T00:27:04Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > He, and his entire crew, stay unhinged for 25 years? I suppose _maybe_ if they’d thrown in some nonsense about how what you were feeling at the moment you went through the black hole stayed with you (thus, if you were angry, you would stay angry)… Actually, he said he stayed around to ensure Romulus would never have to yield to the Federation. He needed the Red Matter to do that. His crew seemed OK with that part, including b-holing all Federation worlds. This to me was a big plot hole. Glad they filled it. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/378 "2009-05-15T00:33:06Z")
He already had the power to do that. The red matter was technobabble overkill. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/379 "2009-05-15T00:39:11Z")
I don’t see it. How could he have vaporized a planet with that ship? The most he could’ve done is turned it into swiss cheese. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/380 "2009-05-15T00:41:29Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > You may as well just skip to saying “Yes, he is, infinity plus one” for all it matters. Then why did you bother to reply? Sauce for the goose, Mr Saavik. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640.md?page=20)