# Star Trek -- the "I saw it" thread \*\*SPOILERS\*\* **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 7, 2009, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640 "2009-05-07T08:13:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/401 "2009-05-15T14:49:13Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Huh. Even the movie’s worst critics have tended to single out Quinto’s performance as rising above the level of the rest of the work. > > Can you say something more specific about why you thought his was a particularly bad performance, or a particularly bad interpretation of Spock’s character? Was anymore more vehement than me in expressing hatred for this movie? Somehow I don’t think so. And even _I_ THINK Quinto did a good job. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/402 "2009-05-15T14:49:56Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Huh. Even the movie’s worst critics have tended to single out Quinto’s performance as rising above the level of the rest of the work. > > Can you say something more specific about why you thought his was a particularly bad performance, or a particularly bad interpretation of Spock’s character? Heh… I actually liked Quinto better than Nimoy… ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/403 "2009-05-15T15:10:31Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, if you don’t want sarcastic replies, don’t ask stupid questions. > [@RikWriter](#): > > There are no stupid questions, only stupid people who get asked questions. Since personal insults aren’t allowed in this forum and “I know you are, but what am I?” is strongly discouraged, **Bryan Ekers** and **RikWriter** are advised to drop this very silly exchange. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/404 "2009-05-15T15:43:21Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > **Lobohan** , I’m honestly curious – why do you seem to so desperately need to explain away other people’s criticism? Does it cheapen your enjoyment of the movie if other people didn’t like it? You should be happy that you enjoyed it; that not all people like the same things is pretty much a given. For instance, Kirk’s insta-promotion apparently worked for you in a way that you could buy it in the context of the film; it didn’t work for me, and others, and thus took me out of the movie. You can’t change that by applying post hoc patches; I simply found it unbelievable, it didn’t work for me in the story, as there was no compelling reason for this to happen other than that he’s Kirk and needs to be captain. Same goes for other plot inconsistencies. It’s not that we’re determined not to like it, it’s that we _didn’t like it_, and can’t retroactively be made to like it. Frankly, this obsession with dispelling other’s criticism seems a bit bizarre to me. I don’t have a problem with someone not liking the film. I have a problem with BE utterly ignoring what was said in the film and pretending there are plot holes where there are none. The movie has plot holes. I freely admit that, but he simply wasn’t listening and is arguing points that aren’t valid. Isn’t this MB about fighting ignorance? 😃 Dislike the film all you like. Just don’t stamp your feet and make arguments that are based on not listening to the dialogue. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/405 "2009-05-15T15:48:53Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > So? We’re not talking about 1960’s technology, where you need a 30 : 1 mass : payload ratio just to get into orbit. If the Federation has managed to get this down to 1.2:1 or better, I’d say that’s close enough not to write off warships for the reduction in combat effectiveness from swapping 16% of your lasers for FTL and maneuvering capacity. First off I might quibble a percentage point or thirty, but the fact remains that in universe DS9 could fend off any one ship it ever faced. It fought off a Klingon fleet. And if you ever played Star Fleet Battles you’d know that a Space Station is no joke. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/406 "2009-05-15T15:58:09Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I have a problem with BE utterly ignoring what was said in the film and pretending there are plot holes where there are none. The movie has plot holes. I freely admit that, but he simply wasn’t listening and is arguing points that aren’t valid. Isn’t this MB about fighting ignorance? 😃 Then it’s a problem solely of your own creation because the plot holes I point out do exist and are major problems in the film’s structure. While I realize the entire premise is a contrivance, I insist that the contrivances not be so utterly obvious and illogical. _Why_ was Spock-prime on the ice-planet where Kirk, running wildly across the landscape to avoid being eaten, could find him? Why does Nero, who has spent 25 years planning this moment of revenge, wanting to savour the moment where Spock will witness the destruction of Vulcan, not want to witness Spock’s witnessing and enjoy the resultant anguish? This is not a nit-picky imaginary flaw. It represents a major problem in the villain’s motivation and if it can only be explained by “Nero’s insane” then it is bad writing, especially since Nero is not alone - he has a crew. Are they _all_ insane? Yes, I listened to the film. And I heard this problem, clear as day. If you don’t agree, fine. Get over it, already. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/407 "2009-05-15T16:06:07Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > This argument undercuts the need for “access codes”, since “a mining ship from today with modern cruise missiles” would have no need to care about Francis Drake’s various flag signals and whatnot, would they? Certainly no need to torture Drake himself for passwords so they could sneak into London harbour and destroy it and then London itself. Undercuts but not eliminates. Obviously the analogy to modern and 16th century ships breaks down since modern ships can fire cruise missiles over the horizon. What we know in film is that Nero’s ship can be destroyed. It is tough but essentially it has a lot of _hit points_. Ramming it with the Kelvin disabled it long enough that the shuttles were able to get away. Spock was able to blast it with his contemporary space ship and do decent damage, and the Enterprise could finish it off when it was trapped in the black hole. If you can be shot a hundred times before dying you can enter battles casually. However charging five machine gun nests is a bad idea. The codes let him get close enough that he could destroy the nests before they could shoot at him long. I assume, that’s certainly what the movie suggested. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/408 "2009-05-15T16:12:14Z")
In that case, the problem is one of scale - the need to make everything so amazingly gargantuan in an effort to blow the audience away, etc. Of course, this just creates wild inconsistancies (Nero’s ship can take out six Fed starships in under a minute, yet can’t handle the single, presumably far less advanced Kelvin before it completes a kamikaze run). On reflection, this was also a weakness of _Star Trek: The Motion Picture_, with everything being so cosmic and _2001_-ish. Hopefully if there is a sequel, they’ll go with a smaller-scale more personal drama like _Wrath of Khan_. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/409 "2009-05-15T16:24:36Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > In that case, the problem is one of scale - the need to make everything so amazingly gargantuan in an effort to blow the audience away, etc. Of course, this just creates wild inconsistancies (Nero’s ship can take out six Fed starships in under a minute, yet can’t handle the single, presumably far less advanced Kelvin before it completes a kamikaze run). Once again, you’re not listening to the dialogue. From Nero’s point of view for the first battle he had just come back from a mining mission. He saw Spock “let Romulus die” and got sucked into a black hole. Then his vessel gets in a battle minutes later. Over the next 25 years I expect they optimized the vessel for combat. Replicated quantum torpedoes, generated anti-matter, and took the ship from its primary role as a mining vessel into a primary role war vessel (imagine a 24 year A-Team build montage). No inconsistency there. > [@](#): > > On reflection, this was also a weakness of _Star Trek: The Motion Picture_, with everything being so cosmic and _2001_-ish. Hopefully if there is a sequel, they’ll go with a smaller-scale more personal drama like _Wrath of Khan_. I hope that too, I’d like to see some ground scale fights instead of giant super vessels. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/410 "2009-05-15T17:12:58Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Once again, you’re not listening to the dialogue. Would you please do me the courtesy of ceasing this vacuous incorrect accusation? I’ve more than enough demonstrated that it is untrue. > [@](#): > > From Nero’s point of view for the first battle he had just come back from a mining mission. He saw Spock “let Romulus die” and got sucked into a black hole. Then his vessel gets in a battle minutes later. Yes, a battle that they are casually winning until they take a break to ask the _Kelvin_ captain in person where Spock is (why they think he would know is mystery, as is why they couldn’t simply ask over the radio). Then they kill the hapless captain and yet are surprisingly unable to finish the heavily-damaged _Kelvin_ off. It’s safe to assume that until that conversation, they didn’t _know_ that they’d been throw into the past. That’s fine. But what they do with information and their massive technological advantage is preposterous. > [@](#): > > Over the next 25 years I expect they optimized the vessel for combat. Replicated quantum torpedoes, generated anti-matter, and took the ship from its primary role as a mining vessel into a primary role war vessel (imagine a 24 year A-Team build montage). No inconsistency there. Except in the sense that over that 25 years, they never once reconsidered the idea, not took any steps to curtail the disaster that destroyed Romulus. This argument assumes that for 25 years, they remained so obsessed and focused on this one goal that it never occurred to them to just attack the Federation at will. They’re implausibly driven and yet implausibly patient. I wouldn’t have a problem with this (or at least not as much of one) if the timeframe had been much much shorter, as in they lurked for a month or so waiting for Spock. Plus there is no indication that they _were_ heavily rebuilding and re-arming over that period. Their ship looks pretty much the same both times (and such a screwy, crazy non-utilitarian design it is, too). In order to explain a flaw in the premise, you have to create new information, including _how_ they managed to rearm and retool without ever going to the contemporary Romulus or apparently anywhere else. That’s a classic sign of bad writing. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/411 "2009-05-15T17:22:55Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > First off I might quibble a percentage point or thirty, but the fact remains that in universe DS9 could fend off any one ship it ever faced. It fought off a Klingon fleet. > > And if you ever played Star Fleet Battles you’d know that a Space Station is no joke. I don’t disagree that DS9 is going to take down any one ship that it is likely to encounter being situated where it is in the Alpha Quadrant, but just to nitpick because I am a Trekkie, I’m pretty sure a Borg Cube would kill it dead so long as Admiral Janeway doesn’t happen to be visiting Bajor at the time. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/412 "2009-05-15T17:24:51Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > It was a mining ship that had modern torpedoes. Do you think that a mining ship from today that had modern cruise missiles could destroy Drake’s fleet? Why would a _mining ship_ have modern cruise missles? Do any have them today? No. Maybe a few _might_ have a machinegun. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/413 "2009-05-15T17:29:29Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Why would a _mining ship_ have modern cruise missles? Do any have them today? No. Maybe a few _might_ have a machinegun. Because they are in the Star Trek universe where such weapons are commonplace? You’ve got to worry about Orion pirates, Ferengi strongmen and the random Tholian crystal ship captian that wants to board and mate with your dilithium matrix. 😃 Unless you’re part of a convoy it makes sense to arm vessels that carry expensive cargo… like fancy space ores for instance. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/414 "2009-05-15T17:32:58Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > I don’t disagree that DS9 is going to take down any one ship that it is likely to encounter being situated where it is in the Alpha Quadrant, but just to nitpick because I am a Trekkie, I’m pretty sure a Borg Cube would kill it dead so long as Admiral Janeway doesn’t happen to be visiting Bajor at the time. Depends on the generation of cube I’d say. But yeah, since the Borg are the nigh unstoppable fine. I’m sure a Q in a rowboat could defeat it too. But we’re talking about standard TNG Romulan ships here. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/415 "2009-05-15T17:33:21Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > the need to make everything so amazingly gargantuan in an effort to blow the audience away…Hopefully if there is a sequel, they’ll go with a smaller-scale more personal drama like _Wrath of Khan_. Perhaps that’s why I enjoy WOK so much. It’s not a universe saving event, but a battle between two starships. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/416 "2009-05-15T17:33:29Z")
Of course the real key to disabling a mining ship is to smuggle a xenomorph aboard. _That_ would’ve been hellacool. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/417 "2009-05-15T17:36:17Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Because they are in the Star Trek universe where such weapons are commonplace? You’ve got to worry about Orion pirates, Ferengi strongmen and the random Tholian crystal ship captian that wants to board and mate with your dilithium matrix. 😃 > > Unless you’re part of a convoy it makes sense to arm vessels that carry expensive cargo… like fancy space ores for instance. Except that they’re not commonplace. It’s silly to think they’d be commonplace. Even the TrekVerse isn’t that Wild West. But so what? If you enjoyed the movie, you’ll be willing to overlook said holes; if you didn’t, no amount of arguing from those who did will change your opinion of said holes. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/418 "2009-05-15T17:38:22Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Perhaps that’s why I enjoy WOK so much. It’s not a universe saving event, but a battle between two starships. Indeed, and the one who wins doesn’t do so by some crazy technobabble fix, but because intelligence doesn’t equal experience. Of course, that makes acting-Ensign Wesley Crusher and promoting Cadet Kirk to Captain even sillier. On reflection, I note that while Spock was choking Kirk, not one crew member intervened. I kinda took this to mean that they like Spock and they _don’t_ like Kirk, which makes their instant loyalty and obedience to Kirk even more unlikely. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/419 "2009-05-15T17:40:00Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Would you please do me the courtesy of ceasing this vacuous incorrect accusation? I’ve more than enough demonstrated that it is untrue. Nope, you clearly weren’t listening or simply chose to forget several elements. Look upthread if you wants evidence. > [@](#): > > Yes, a battle that they are casually winning until they take a break to ask the _Kelvin_ captain in person where Spock is (why they think he would know is mystery, as is why they couldn’t simply ask over the radio). Then they kill the hapless captain and yet are surprisingly unable to finish the heavily-damaged _Kelvin_ off. It’s safe to assume that until that conversation, they didn’t _know_ that they’d been throw into the past. That’s fine. But what they do with information and their massive technological advantage is preposterous. The Kelvin did lose that fight you know? > [@](#): > > Except in the sense that over that 25 years, they never once reconsidered the idea, not took any steps to curtail the disaster that destroyed Romulus. This argument assumes that for 25 years, they remained so obsessed and focused on this one goal that it never occurred to them to just attack the Federation at will. They’re implausibly driven and yet implausibly patient. I wouldn’t have a problem with this (or at least not as much of one) if the timeframe had been much much shorter, as in they lurked for a month or so waiting for Spock. The disaster would take a century to happen. No point in dealing with it now. Nero specifically said that he wanted no Federation to act as a check for Romulan expansion. He needs the Red Matter for that. > [@](#): > > Plus there is no indication that they _were_ heavily rebuilding and re-arming over that period. Their ship looks pretty much the same both times (and such a screwy, crazy non-utilitarian design it is, too). In order to explain a flaw in the premise, you have to create new information, including _how_ they managed to rearm and retool without ever going to the contemporary Romulus or apparently anywhere else. That’s a classic sign of bad writing. And they never explained that Kirk ever used the bathroom either. Where exactly did that apple go? :dubious: Even if they didn’t do a single thing to upgrade the ship, drilling and practicing for the quarter century would let them use their high tech to best effect. We don’t know what they were doing because we don’t need to know. We know that when they re-appeared they were ready to fight. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/420 "2009-05-15T17:42:30Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Except that they’re not commonplace. It’s silly to think they’d be commonplace. Even the TrekVerse isn’t that Wild West. But so what? If you enjoyed the movie, you’ll be willing to overlook said holes; if you didn’t, no amount of arguing from those who did will change your opinion of said holes. Do we have canon that Romulan trade ships aren’t armed? TNG Romulans seemed pretty isolationist and warlike, didn’t they? Imagine six billion pointy eared Pat Buchanons… you can bet your off-center green blooded heart that they’ll have torpedoes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640.md?page=22)