# Star Trek -- the "I saw it" thread \*\*SPOILERS\*\* **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 7, 2009, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640 "2009-05-07T08:13:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/421 "2009-05-15T17:43:59Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Nope, you clearly weren’t listening or simply chose to forget several elements. No, but it’s an accurate description of your behaviour in this thread so I guess we’re done. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/422 "2009-05-15T17:44:36Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > … if the timeframe had been much much shorter, as in they lurked for a month or so waiting for Spock… I _thought_ that they waited for Spock for most of that time and that it was fairly soon after they captured Spock, that they placed him in viewing distance of their impending destruction of Vulcan. His (implausible perhaps) obsessive goal was first and foremost to make Spock see the destruction of Vulcan and feel the pain that he felt seeing Romulus destroyed. After that was to destroy the Federation and thereby save Romulus by unencumbering it from the Federation’s constraints. As to having ships armed to protect them and their cargo from piracy - nah that’s crazy. Just pay the ransom every time. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/423 "2009-05-15T17:45:45Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Except that they’re not commonplace. It’s silly to think they’d be commonplace. Well, I guess if you want to make that assumption just to cover up some major flaws, there’s nothing stopping you. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/424 "2009-05-15T17:46:03Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Indeed, and the one who wins doesn’t do so by some crazy technobabble fix, but because intelligence doesn’t equal experience. In other words you have no problem with the miners with limited combat experience floundering in the first battle and kicking ass after 25 years of single minded training? 😃 > [@](#): > > Of course, that makes acting-Ensign Wesley Crusher and promoting Cadet Kirk to Captain even sillier. He was first officer, weren’t you listening? > [@](#): > > On reflection, I note that while Spock was choking Kirk, not one crew member intervened. I kinda took this to mean that they like Spock and they _don’t_ like Kirk, which makes their instant loyalty and obedience to Kirk even more unlikely. Or they were freaked out. No one expects a vulcan to go postal. That’s like a Catholic Bishop pulling a knife out of his miter and holding an altar boy hostage. You get twelve seconds of… huh? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/425 "2009-05-15T17:47:19Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Because they are in the Star Trek universe where such weapons are commonplace? You’ve got to worry about Orion pirates, Ferengi strongmen and the random Tholian crystal ship captian that wants to board and mate with your dilithium matrix. 😃 > > Unless you’re part of a convoy it makes sense to arm vessels that carry expensive cargo… like fancy space ores for instance. There has never been an indication in the Star Trek Universe that non-warships are routinely armed as heavily as the largest warship in the fleet. To even think so is ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/426 "2009-05-15T17:47:56Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, I guess if you want to make that assumption just to cover up some major flaws, there’s nothing stopping you. You want to explain why a mining vessel for a war like and isolationist government wouldn’t be armed? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/427 "2009-05-15T17:49:57Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I _thought_ that they waited for Spock for most of that time and that it was fairly soon after they captured Spock, that they placed him in viewing distance of their impending destruction of Vulcan. Well, that just raises the question of where this ice planet _is_. Vulcan isn’t some distant dot going “poof”; it appears in the ice-planet’s sky several times larger than the full moon appears from Earth. In addition to a willful ignorance of anything plausibly military, the writers abandoned anything plausibly astronomical. Ah, for the days when Trek was “too cerebral”… ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/428 "2009-05-15T17:49:59Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > There has never been an indication in the Star Trek Universe that non-warships are routinely armed as heavily as the largest warship in the fleet. To even think so is ridiculous. The problem is you’re assuming that Nero’s ship could take Enterprise D. I don’t think that’s the case. They were fighting ships with pathetic shields and weak phasers from their point of view. Modest weaponry from a century in the future was enough to give them a huge edge. Srsly. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/429 "2009-05-15T17:51:46Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Except that they’re not commonplace. It’s silly to think they’d be commonplace. Even the TrekVerse isn’t that Wild West. But so what? If you enjoyed the movie, you’ll be willing to overlook said holes; if you didn’t, no amount of arguing from those who did will change your opinion of said holes. Except I’m pretty sure we’ve SEEN armed merchant ships, at least in Enterprise (which was pre-Federation, and even pre-Starfleet-worth-mentioning, granted). I don’t have a huge problem figuring that due to space indeed being a dangerous place, some folks will have weapons on their mining/merchant ships. It’s not like Nero seemed all that well balanced to begin with, maybe he was the Romulan equivalent of those militia guys that used to hang out in fortified compounds in the woods in the US? Sure, he SAYS he is just a humble miner, but then, Simon didn’t mention that he personally busted his sister out of the Academy in Firefly. Sometimes people lie, and sometimes nobody calls them on it. Fankwank system disengaged, Sir.😃 ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/430 "2009-05-15T17:52:18Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Depends on the generation of cube I’d say. But yeah, since the Borg are the nigh unstoppable fine. I’m sure a Q in a rowboat could defeat it too. But we’re talking about standard TNG Romulan ships here. Actually, according to the prequel comic, it was a standard TNG Romulan mining ship that was unarmed till they visited some Romulan outpost after the destruction of Romulus that fitted them with salvaged Borg tech. It’s an utterly hokey explanation, but it’s still more than the movie people deigned to present us with. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/431 "2009-05-15T17:52:20Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, that just raises the question of where this ice planet _is_. Vulcan isn’t some distant dot going “poof”; it appears in the ice-planet’s sky several times larger than the full moon appears from Earth. In addition to a willful ignorance of anything plausibly military, the writers abandoned anything plausibly astronomical. > > Ah, for the days when Trek was “too cerebral”… Unless it was a flub you’d have to assume that Delta Vega is in orbit of Vulcan, a moon. They clearly dropped Spock off right before destroying Vulcan. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/432 "2009-05-15T17:55:24Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > You want to explain why a mining vessel for a war like and isolationist government wouldn’t be armed? Armed as heavily as a battleship? Show me when,in any period of earth history, than mining ships were armed as heavily as a line of battle ship. A few light weapons for self defense sure. But non-warships don’t carry torpedoes. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/433 "2009-05-15T17:57:03Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Armed as heavily as a battleship? Show me when,in any period of earth history, than mining ships were armed as heavily as a line of battle ship. A few light weapons for self defense sure. But non-warships don’t carry torpedoes. How many _mining_ ships have we had throughout history? This is sounding vaguely like a discussion of how effective cloaking technology has been in the 20th century (obviously, it’s been QUITE effective. Nobody’s seen a cloaked ship yet!) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/434 "2009-05-15T17:58:26Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Armed as heavily as a battleship? Show me when,in any period of earth history, than mining ships were armed as heavily as a line of battle ship. A few light weapons for self defense sure. But non-warships don’t carry torpedoes. Maybe the Romulan mining corporations of the future think insurance is for wusses. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/435 "2009-05-15T18:00:58Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > How many _mining_ ships have we had throughout history? Maybe the closest real-world analogy is to an oil platform that floats out at sea somewhere and lowers a drill… …okay, it makes no sense whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/436 "2009-05-15T18:01:32Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Armed as heavily as a battleship? Show me when,in any period of earth history, than mining ships were armed as heavily as a line of battle ship. A few light weapons for self defense sure. But non-warships don’t carry torpedoes. Right. And what does that have to Star Trek? Show me any period of Earth history when people could replicate complex electronics, materials at will, had copious amounts of anti-matter as a fuel source and could trivially defeat the laws of physics in ways that would piss off Dr. Who. Seriously? You think that a ship with torpedoes in the Star Trek universe is silly? Ferengis, Orions and Klingons raid people all the time. Shit, I’m sure humans pirates exist in their world. Turn in your communicator badge and phaser. You are hereby demoted to a Star Wars fan. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/437 "2009-05-15T18:05:11Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Maybe the closest real-world analogy is to an oil platform that floats out at sea somewhere and lowers a drill… > …okay, it makes no sense whatsoever. Next movie, Nero the Oil Platform captain floats over to Bermuda and drills for oil to destroy their beaches. And it’s up to Baywatch: Federation to save them. [Cue Uhura running in slow motion, Spock rubbing suntan lotion on a co-ed, and Kirk snatches up a float and holds in his gut.] ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/438 "2009-05-15T18:15:12Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Of course the real key to disabling a mining ship is to smuggle a xenomorph aboard. > _That_ would’ve been hellacool. Sulu: Is this gonna be a standup fight, sir, or another bughunt? Spock: All we know is that there’s still no contact with the mining ship, and that a xenomorph may be involved. Scotty: Excuse me sir, a-a what? Spock: A xenomorph. Kirk: It’s a bughunt. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/439 "2009-05-15T18:25:30Z")
My suggested alternative - skip all this academy crap and Kirk and Spock both have the rank of Commander and have well-established reputations based on things they’ve actually, y’know, _done_. McCoy and Scott are older while Sulu, Chekov and Uhura are younger. Kirk and Spock are more rivals than friends, competing for promotion. When the dust clears, Kirk is Captain and Spock will grudgingly accept this and support Kirk, as long as he doesn’t screw up. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/440 "2009-05-15T18:25:55Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Of course, that makes acting-Ensign Wesley Crusher and promoting Cadet Kirk to Captain even sillier. You know, I just realized that my problem with the new Kirk isn’t so much this utterly nonsensical promotion – it’s that he was never shown to be deserving of it. Basically, all that happens to establish his greatness is Pike telling the camera that Kirk’s a real badass, and that’s supposed to be enough to convince everybody. Kirk, in this movie, is basically Superman: he gets everything handed to him by virtue of merely being who he is. He’s never shown proving himself worthy of all the praise he earns, quite the opposite, in fact – despite drunken brawling, juvenile delinquency, and general assholing about, he’s recognized as the Chosen One. It’s the dream of every underachiever: that someday somebody will come and recognize their potential and elevate them to their true greatness. They could have shown Kirk working his way up through the ranks, proving himself the best of his peers by going through the same trials and tribulations as them and coming out ahead, but instead they went the shortcut route and just branded him with the capital ‘S’ for Special, had a few other characters tell us how great he is, and then that’s that for character establishment. It’s utterly lame, lazy, and underhanded in terms of writing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640.md?page=23)