# Star Trek -- the "I saw it" thread \*\*SPOILERS\*\* **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 7, 2009, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640 "2009-05-07T08:13:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/461 "2009-05-15T20:12:20Z")
> [@Terminus\_Est](#): > > There were twelve (including the _Enterprise_-A) _Constitution_-class starships: Why is _Enterprise_-A in that list? Was it a refit of a _Constitution_-class that got renamed, just as the original _Enterprise_ got refit for the movies? There’s also the implication that there was a USS _Constitution_ for which the class was named. As I recall, the post-refit versions are described as _Enterprise_ class, presumably after the first ship (arguably the only ship) to get such treatment. I guess it’s unclear if the _Enterprise_-A is a refitted former-_Constitution_ ship or a wholly new one. I would personally guess refit since just two movies later they were planning to decommission the _Enterprise_-A, which makes some sense if it’s a thirty-year old _Constitution_ with a facelift, but none if it was brand new as of _Star Trek IV_. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/462 "2009-05-15T20:13:28Z")
> [@Terminus\_Est](#): > > There were twelve (including the _Enterprise_-A) _Constitution_-class starships: > > [ul] > [li] USS _Constellation_ (NCC-1017) - destroyed by the planet-eater in “The Doomsday Machine”[/li][li] USS _Intrepid_ (NCC-1631) - eaten by the space amoeba in “The Immunity Syndrome”[/li][li] USS _Potemkin_ (NCC-1657) - severely damaged (but not destroyed) by M5 in “The Ultimate Computer”[/li][li] USS _Excalibur_ (NCC-1664) - destroyed by M5[/li][li] USS _Exeter_ (NCC-1672) - found deserted in “The Omega Glory”[/li][li] NCC-1700 - unnamed and never shown[/li][li] USS _Enterprise_ (NCC-1701) - destroyed in _The Search for Spock_[/li][li] USS _Enterprise_ (NCC-1701-A) - survived intact![/li][li] USS _Hood_ (NCC-1703) - severely damaged by M5 [destroyed in the new movie][/li][li] NCC-1707 - unnamed ship seen only in _The Voyage Home_[/li][li] USS _Lexington_ (NCC-1709) - severely damaged by M5[/li][li] USS _Defiant_ (NCC-1764) - crew killed each other in “The Tholian Web”[/li][/ul] > > Overall, not a good track record. Oh, I don’t know. Both the no-suffix Enterprise and its successer lasted 15-plus years (there’s a big gap in time between Trek V & Trek VI, to account for the fact that II & III both take place over no more than a week, and IV takes place only a few months later). ---
**Author:** ![kingpengvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9dc877/32.png) [@kingpengvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingpengvin)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/463 "2009-05-15T20:13:45Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Already asked up thread. But it’s nice to see a legitimate point. I think they should have made it clear that the ship didn’t wait the entire 25 years. That’s the only way the lightning makes sense. Actually.. nope.. he waited the entire 25 years the lightening in question was the arrival of Spock Prime. That’s 25 years he could have spent contacting the Romulans of that time and letting them pour over his ship for technology so that they could be strong enough to bump off the Federation… of course I guess it is more fun to hang around until spock shows and take his red matter for a different convoluted plot. I still liked this movie but its plot doesn’t stand up to real scrutiny. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/464 "2009-05-15T20:20:08Z")
> [@kingpengvin](#): > > I still liked this movie but its plot doesn’t stand up to real scrutiny. I’m told it makes perfect sense if you listen _really, really_ hard. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/465 "2009-05-15T20:25:30Z")
> [@Terminus\_Est](#): > > USS _Enterprise_ (NCC-1701-A) - survived intact! I presume it was a contemporary vessel hat survived to be redesignated. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/466 "2009-05-15T20:26:42Z")
Speaking of Enterprises, what was its status between Kirk and Picard? Did it have any other distinguished captains or adventures? > [@kingpengvin](#): > > Actually.. nope.. he waited the entire 25 years the lightening in question was the arrival of Spock Prime. That’s 25 years he could have spent contacting the Romulans of that time and letting them pour over his ship for technology so that they could be strong enough to bump off the Federation… of course I guess it is more fun to hang around until spock shows and take his red matter for a different convoluted plot. > > I still liked this movie but its plot doesn’t stand up to real scrutiny. The problem is Nero actually did that. He gave his technology to his people and they started messing up the time stream. The Temporal Police showed up and blew up Romulus anyway. No one knows why they did that, but no one knows why the Temporal Police do anything. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/467 "2009-05-15T20:32:28Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I still hate the movie, but I’ll fanwank this. It’s been well over a century by Spock’s personal timline since that happened. In the interim, he’s learned greater mastery of his telepathy and has the ability to completely suppress it when need be. When he saw what was happening, he did so, because as bad as things were, nothing would be helped by him becoming catatonic or gibbering. That’s my own personal fanwank as well, but I still don’t buy it considering their telepathic abilities and the emotions bubbling right under the surface. In essence, without logic, Vulcans are badass Betazoids, and Spock should have been on his knees, clutching his ears and wailing that he feels PAIN and ANGER. As I said, though, it’s not a big deal to me, and even the bits that are big sticking points to me (Kirk’s insta-promotion and Spock spacing him instead of throwing him in the brig) aren’t enough to really make me hate the movie. I liked it a lot, but it’s fucking stupid, just like the much beloved pet that you’ve had forever but is senile and always getting stuck in the most ridiculous places. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/468 "2009-05-15T20:35:17Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Speaking of Enterprises, what was its status between Kirk and Picard? Did it have any other distinguished captains or adventures? At the end of VI, Starfleet decides --WITHOUT INSPECTING IT ON-SITE-to scuttle the Enterprise-A. Spock was definitely retiring to become an ambassador, and I think Kirk, McCoy, and Scott were as well; and I think the novelization has it that Uhura was going (back) to the Academy to teach. Sulu had obviously moved on years before, and I imagine Chekov had an interdimensional wormhole to catch so he could activate his psychic powers. So that would be that. There were two Enterprises betwween Kirk and Picard’s tenure. I think you can make a reasonable case that, of ALL the Enterprises, Rachel Garrett’s was the single most important. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/469 "2009-05-15T20:38:25Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I presume it was a contemporary vessel hat survived to be redesignated. Fanon has it as the refitted Yorktown, which was going to be the original name of the Enterprise. > [@levdrakon](#): > > Speaking of Enterprises, what was its status between Kirk and Picard? Did it have any other distinguished captains or adventures? Captain John Harriman captained the Excelsior class Enterprise-B, and all that is known about it is that Kirk was lost on its first outing. The Ambassador class Enterprise-C was captained by Rachel Garrett and her sacrifice of it with most hands aboard while defending a Klingon outpost against a small Romulan fleet was integral in the 24th Century detente between the Federation and the Klingon Empire. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/470 "2009-05-15T20:43:34Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > That’s my own personal fanwank as well, but I still don’t buy it considering their telepathic abilities and the emotions bubbling right under the surface. In essence, without logic, Vulcans are badass Betazoids, and Spock should have been on his knees, clutching his ears and wailing that he feels PAIN and ANGER. I wouldn’t say that they’re badass Betazoids, because Vulcan and Betazed powers are quite different–not just in degree but, I think, in kind. Spock could read Hortas & robots, whereas Mrs. Troi was stymied by Ferengi. Spock could command people to do things from a distance, whereas Mrs. Troi clearly couldn’t. (Otherwise, in the episode with David Ogden Stiers, she would clearly have forced O’Brien to do her will.) Spock could wipe memories and otherwise influence people’s minds; we never see a Betazed do anything of the kind. But here’s another fanwank. Spock’s powers had declined with age, or been deliberately screwed with. We know that in Picard’s timeline, Sarek dies of a disease that in its earlier stages costs him control of his telepathy. It’s not had to imagine another condition that might simply x-out telepathic powers; or that Spock, at some point, prophylactically had the part fo his brain that enables telepathy excised in order to avoid his father’s fate. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/471 "2009-05-15T20:47:53Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m told it makes perfect sense if you listen _really, really_ hard. No, you are told that the specific problems you list are the result of you not paying attentions. The movie has plot problems, you’re just fixating on ones that are the result of your inattentiveness. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/472 "2009-05-15T20:54:25Z")
> [@kingpengvin](#): > > Actually.. nope.. he waited the entire 25 years the lightening in question was the arrival of Spock Prime. That’s 25 years he could have spent contacting the Romulans of that time and letting them pour over his ship for technology so that they could be strong enough to bump off the Federation… of course I guess it is more fun to hang around until spock shows and take his red matter for a different convoluted plot. > > I still liked this movie but its plot doesn’t stand up to real scrutiny. Remember when Pike told him he was confused, that Romulus still exists and it’s out there. Nero screamed that he saw it happen and not to tell him it didn’t happen. I suspect that Nero doesn’t want to go back to Romulus either for emotional reasons, or until his job, as the last of the Romulans from his timeline is done. I suspect he’d find the idea of floating off to Romulus and letting the ship jumpstart their technology would make his pain meaningless. He’s the only one that was wronged, it’s his job to get revenge for his family. As for the crew’s motivation to go with, his second had an obvious Bro-mance going on with Nero. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/473 "2009-05-15T20:56:10Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > But here’s another fanwank. Spock’s powers had declined with age, or been deliberately screwed with. We know that in Picard’s timeline, Sarek dies of a disease that in its earlier stages costs him control of his telepathy. It’s not had to imagine another condition that might simply x-out telepathic powers; or that Spock, at some point, prophylactically had the part fo his brain that enables telepathy excised in order to avoid his father’s fate. Well, that covers Spock-prime, but not Spock-, uh, -Quinto, who is much closer in age to Spock-prime when S-p showed the reaction to the loss of the _Intrepid_. Fanwank-aroo: telepathic sensitivity is geometrically proportional to sexual tension. Spock-prime from “The Immunity Syndrome”" was still green-balled because of the unsatisfactory ending of “Amok Time” a few months earlier (he would release this tension a few months later when nailing the Romulan Commander in “The Enterprise Incident”). Spock-Quinto is not tense at all because he’s been nailing Uhura on a regular basis, and the older Spock-prime hasn’t had an erection in years - damned illogical Vulcan prostate problems… ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/474 "2009-05-15T20:59:43Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, that covers Spock-prime, but not Spock-, uh, -Quinto, who is much closer in age to Spock-prime when S-p showed the reaction to the loss of the _Intrepid_. > > Fanwank-aroo: telepathic sensitivity is geometrically proportional to sexual tension. Spock-prime from “The Immunity Syndrome”" was still green-balled because of the unsatisfactory ending of “Amok Time” a few months earlier (he would release this tension a few months later when nailing the Romulan Commander in “The Enterprise Incident”). Spock-Quinto is not tense at all because he’s been nailing Uhura on a regular basis, and the older Spock-prime hasn’t had an erection in years - damned illogical Vulcan prostate problems… Oh, I can explain Uhura’s lover. The writers didn’t remember the episode we’re referring to, nor did they care because it didn’t advance their story. Which is cool. with me. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/475 "2009-05-15T21:01:12Z")
Troi is a half-Betazoid, but Tam Elbrun (who I just realized was Mayor Richard Wilkins III after looking him up to get his name right) was fully Betazoid and showed a lot more telepathic ability than she did. I think it’s fair to say that there’s a very wide range of ability. Again, this isn’t a huge issue to me, and is one that is easily overlooked or even explained. It’s well established that Vulcans are telepathic, though, so some sort of in-universe explanation would have been nice. All it would have taken was him saying “He just witnessed his planet’s destruction. I . . . \*\*\*we \*\*\*are emotionally compromised”. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/476 "2009-05-15T21:06:20Z")
Actually, if we’re going to drag in overlooked canon material, I recall Spock saying “Vulcan has no moon” at one point, though I’m not sure of the exact episode, so forget all this ice-planet-vantage-point nonsense. When I get a chance to see the movie again, for free (because I’m sure not _paying_ again), I’ll make a note of how much time and travel elapses between Kirk getting jettisoned (which makes no sense in itself) and the Enterprise arriving at Vulcan. If the ice planet (“Delta-Vega”, I seem to recall - certainly an odd name for a Vulcan moon, if it is one) is indeed a moon of Vulcan, these should be near-simultaneous. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/477 "2009-05-15T21:07:14Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > Troi is a half-Betazoid, but Tam Elbrun (who I just realized was Mayor Richard Wilkins III after looking him up to get his name right) was fully Betazoid and showed a lot more telepathic ability than she did. I think it’s fair to say that there’s a very wide range of ability. You’ll note that I specifically mentioned MRS. Troi, both because I didn’t want to mention Deanna (whose ability were clearly subpar for her species) and because I wasn’t about to try to spell the counselor’s mother’s given name. And Tam Elbrun’s powers were BROKEN, if I recall aright; he was born with the powers on (as opposed to having them develop at puberty like the normal Betazed) and could not turn them off, at least not all the way. That was why he had taken such a remote posting (he didn’t have to listen to countless voices in his head all the time) and why he liked Data (clearly a person, but not a noise in his head.) ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/478 "2009-05-15T21:08:53Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Actually, if we’re going to drag in overlooked canon material, I recall Spock saying “Vulcan has no moon” at one point, though I’m not sure of the exact episode, so forget all this ice-planet-vantage-point nonsense. > > When I get a chance to see the movie again, for free (because I’m sure not _paying_ again), I’ll make a note of how much time and travel elapses between Kirk getting jettisoned (which makes no sense in itself) and the Enterprise arriving at Vulcan. If the ice planet (“Delta-Vega”, I seem to recall - certainly an odd name for a Vulcan moon, if it is one) is indeed a moon of Vulcan, these should be near-simultaneous. According to Memory Alpha, it’s in system. [http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Delta\_Vega\_(Vulcan\_system)](http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Delta_Vega_(Vulcan_system)) ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/479 "2009-05-15T21:10:50Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Actually, if we’re going to drag in overlooked canon material, I recall Spock saying “Vulcan has no moon” at one point, though I’m not sure of the exact episode, so forget all this ice-planet-vantage-point nonsense. > > When I get a chance to see the movie again, for free (because I’m sure not _paying_ again), I’ll make a note of how much time and travel elapses between Kirk getting jettisoned (which makes no sense in itself) and the Enterprise arriving at Vulcan. If the ice planet (“Delta-Vega”, I seem to recall - certainly an odd name for a Vulcan moon, if it is one) is indeed a moon of Vulcan, these should be near-simultaneous. I hate to admit it, but Kirk’s getting jettisoned DOES make sense in the context of 90210!Spock being affected (and maybe a little nuts) by the sounds of 6 billion Vulcans dying in one great artichoke scream. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/480 "2009-05-15T21:13:32Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > (he would release this tension a few months later when nailing the Romulan Commander in “The Enterprise Incident”). Mr. Spock does not “nail”. Mr. Spock has stimulating conversations with intelligent females. :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640.md?page=25)