# Star Trek -- the "I saw it" thread \*\*SPOILERS\*\* **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 7, 2009, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640 "2009-05-07T08:13:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 48
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/941 "2009-06-02T23:18:14Z")
> [@TWDuke](#): > > Trek V: “I am a Vulcan. I am incapable of lying.” > > Of course, he’s lying when he says that. He’s exaggerating. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/942 "2009-06-02T23:20:24Z")
> [@TWDuke](#): > > The Enterprise Incident: “I have heard of the Vulcan integrity and personal honor. There is a well-known saying, or is it a myth, that Vulcans are incapable of lying.” > > The Doomsday Machine: "“Vulcans never bluff.” > > The Menagerie: "- “It’s impossible, Jim; Spock is a Vulcan. He is utterly incapable of lying.” > > Trek V: “I am a Vulcan. I am incapable of lying.” > > Of course, he’s lying when he says that. You forgot my favorite, from “I, Mudd.” “Everything I say is a lie. I am lying” ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/943 "2009-06-02T23:53:12Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > You forgot my favorite, from “I, Mudd.” > > “Everything I say is a lie. I am lying” I think Kirk says that. Spock definitely, however, tells one fembot “I love you” and another identical fembot “However, I hate you.” For “The Enterprise Incident” and “The Menagerie”, Spock is quite obviously being deceptive, despite the beliefs of nonVulcans that he couldn’t possibly be. And what better bluff is there than “[My people] never bluff”, said forcefully? Somehow, this belief got picked up by later writers who accepted the meme without ever looking into it. Trek II’s “You lied / I exaggerated” is a cute exchange, but unfortunately shows some carelessness. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/944 "2009-06-03T00:01:08Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I think Kirk says that. Spock says “listen very carefully: I am lying.” Anyone remember what Tuvok says about pretending to be a Maquis? ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/945 "2009-06-03T00:10:15Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I think Kirk says that. Oh, Spock was going on about logic being a tweeting bird then. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/946 "2009-06-03T00:20:28Z")
Without reviewing the episode, I can’t be sure who exactly administers the “I am lying” _coup de grace_ to Norman. On further reflection, I think Kirk and Harry Mudd close in on Norman during the episode’s climax and Kirk says everything Harry says is a lie, and Harry says “Listen to me carefully, Norman - I am lying”, and the resulting paradox blows Norman’s mind. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/947 "2009-06-03T00:39:50Z")
Mrs. Plant, famous convention goer and Trek expert extraordinaire informs me that Kirk says, “I’m lying”. I stand corrected. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/948 "2009-06-03T01:33:15Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I think Kirk says that. > > Spock definitely, however, tells one fembot “I love you” and another identical fembot “However, I hate you.” > > For “The Enterprise Incident” and “The Menagerie”, Spock is quite obviously being deceptive, despite the beliefs of nonVulcans that he couldn’t possibly be. And what better bluff is there than “[My people] never bluff”, said forcefully? > > Somehow, this belief got picked up by later writers who accepted the meme without ever looking into it. Trek II’s “You lied / I exaggerated” is a cute exchange, but unfortunately shows some carelessness. I’ve always taken Spock, Tuvok, or the Vulcan of the week saying they don’t lie either as a convenient myth that can be used to their advantage when they need to, or just mocking the idiots that believe it. Vulcans may claim cold rationality and aloofness, but it’s obvious that every one of them is as emotional under their facade as any human. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/949 "2009-06-03T01:33:44Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > They lie, too. Beats me how the impression they don’t ever got started. Well I heard it from the Minbari. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/950 "2009-06-05T03:18:36Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Erda to Wotan,\* Das Rheingold\*, Scene 4. > > “Give it up, Wotan. This is some really bad shit.” I am listening to it tonight. Weiche, Wotan! Weiche! Flieh’ des Ringes Fluch! Rettungslos dunklem Verderben weiht dich sein Gewinn. Yield, Wotan, yield! Escape from the ring’s curse. To dark destruction irredeemably its possession dooms you. Am I right, or what? ---
**Author:** ![Corner\_Case](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/corner_case/32/234_2.png) [@Corner\_Case](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corner_Case)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/951 "2009-06-05T14:28:59Z")
I don’t remember these statements to WOTAN in Doctor Who and _The War Machine_ 😉 As for the movie we were all ostensibly talking aboot… My wife was actually able to stay awake and thought it was fun. It was a fun romp. Having previously read this thread I was able to just enjoy the movie and not nitpick it to death and destroy my own fun of it. But I love nitpicking too, so… I got how Kirk was a rebel because he lost his dad. So it made sense when he chucked motorcycle keys at a stranger and took on a life where he thought he’d be in control. I liked the homage to the THX-1138 cops (at least that’s what it looked like to me). I just don’t know why young Kirk didn’t remember the strip mine where they get the stone for the starships they build. And it makes sense to build a ship on the ground since it’s so hard to launch that stone into orbit. The Orion girl? I just thought, maybe, they ripen with age. Destiny compelled sending Kirk to Spock’s planet Hoth, so that’s okay. And I figure Spock can find combustables buried under the ice. As for this planet, well, Uhuru in TOS asked about Vulcan romance under the moon and Spock responded, “Vulcan has no moon.” So in TAS Yesteryear they have this giant ‘moon’ that becomes Vulcan’s sister planet. So Spock gets marooned there. (sorry if this was already discussed) Overall the only parts that were really jarring were the sparkly lights all over the ship, Scotty, Kobayashi Maru, and starship technology changes. Sparkly lights - Ugh. Scotty’s character looked too short and felt a bit too manic. He sounded okay, the pet needed to go, and the Gloob Tubes were stupid. The Koayashi Maru was supposed to be where Kirk changed the test to be winnable, not a joke. He should be put on report for that (and he was about to be), and given a commendation for original thinking if he just made the test winnable. I guess the loss of his dad makes him more rebellious. What was most jarring was just that Nero came at Kirk’s birth and his small influence changed the entire look and feel of how a starship is built. Tone down the glare, keep the halls from looking like Disco-On-Ice, and get rid of just a few engineering pipes. That would be nice, but I just can’t get over how 25 years could change TOS to THAT (The Hubris of Abrams Treatise). But I had fun and I would look forward to a next movie. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/952 "2009-06-05T14:56:25Z")
Intensive scans of the pointy pinecone from 150 years in the future could have given them lots of ideas on how to make their ships harder, better, faster, stronger. ---
**Author:** ![Corner\_Case](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/corner_case/32/234_2.png) [@Corner\_Case](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corner_Case)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/953 "2009-06-05T15:19:38Z")
“pointy pinecone” … you mean Spock? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Amp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Amp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amp)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/954 "2009-06-05T15:36:06Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > Intensive scans of the pointy pinecone from 150 years in the future could have given them lots of ideas on how to make their ships harder, better, faster, stronger. No, Spock’s shipped arrived 25 years after the events of the beginning of the movie, after the Enterprise was built. I thought the explanation for the more advanced tech was that this timeline is the same as _Star Trek: Enterprise_. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/955 "2009-06-05T16:13:49Z")
Or perhaps “the ships were always like that, the budget just couldn’t support it”. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Corner\_Case](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/corner_case/32/234_2.png) [@Corner\_Case](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corner_Case)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/956 "2009-06-05T16:20:45Z")
You know how painters and drywallers put up transparent plastic sheeting and drapes to cover things while working. Perhaps, for the entire 5-year mission, the decorators just forgot to remove the paint shields from all the walls and consoles. It really looked like that for all of TOS but they saw the glare when they took off the first panel and hastily put it back saying that it gave them headaches. They lef the panels in engineering because everyone kept banging their heads on the overhead pipes. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/957 "2009-06-05T16:22:18Z")
> [@Amp](#): > > No, Spock’s shipped arrived 25 years after the events of the beginning of the movie, after the Enterprise was built. The “pointy pinecone” is the Narada, which the Kelvin would have scanned as it was being attacked, and presumably would have uploaded this information to its escape pods. Spock’s ship, the Jellyfish, is the “keychain ornament”. > [@Amp](#): > > I thought the explanation for the more advanced tech was that this timeline is the same as _Star Trek: Enterprise_. _Enterprise_ is in both continuities. ---
**Author:** ![Corner\_Case](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/corner_case/32/234_2.png) [@Corner\_Case](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corner_Case)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/958 "2009-06-05T16:34:52Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > _Enterprise_ is in both continuities. It is to weep. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Amp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Amp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amp)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/959 "2009-06-05T16:46:32Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > The “pointy pinecone” is the Narada, which the Kelvin would have scanned as it was being attacked, and presumably would have uploaded this information to its escape pods. Spock’s ship, the Jellyfish, is the “keychain ornament”. :smack: I’ll just go in the corner and observe for the rest of the thread. > [@Aesiron; 11214489](#): > > _Enterprise_ is in both continuities. My head assplode! ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640/960 "2009-06-05T19:08:59Z")
I like Roger Ebert’s interpretation of the new look for the ship: the Enterprise was built in Vegas (or some such–I’m paraphrasing. And it might have been the New Yorker critic, not Ebert. Gah!) :smack: Carry on… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640.md?page=47) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-i-saw-it-thread-spoilers/495640.md?page=49)