# Star Trek: The old and the New **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 19, 2009, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-old-and-the-new/518169 "2009-11-19T17:38:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2009, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-old-and-the-new/518169/21 "2009-11-19T19:43:39Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > It’s not so much a reboot as it is an alternate time-line. The original ST universe still exists. Watch your DVDs. It’s still there. Just watch out if Spock starts growing a goatee… ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2009, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-old-and-the-new/518169/22 "2009-11-19T19:51:15Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Maybe the producers felt that they had to have some kind of figurative “passing of the torch”. “These are truly the annointed heirs…” But anointedness sucks, for dramatic purposes. Plotlines that make no sense don’t gain automatic significance just because the anointed ones are involved. In fact, too many movies use the crutch that the _only_ reason the story has any significance is that the anointed ones are involved, and since anointedness is forever, the roles the characters have related to other are forever, too. I thought it was refreshing to see newSpock beat newKirk half to death (frankly because newKirk kinda pisses me off), suggesting the new idea that these men will _not_ be lifetime friends, but then oldSpock keeps interrupting and saying the newSpock and newKirk have a destiny… oy. Way to abort your franchise’s potential to be exciting and different, there. Similarly, Neo was the anointed character of the _Matrix_ trilogy, which meant he had to follow a preset destiny-heavy path that took all tension out of the story and left us with something that was supposed to be deep but was instead incoherent, because something that just made sense would have been too ordinary. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2009, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-old-and-the-new/518169/23 "2009-11-19T19:54:15Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Maybe the producers felt that they had to have some kind of figurative “passing of the torch”. “These are truly the annointed heirs…” No, they had to make it abundantly clear that this is all an alternate time-line, or else they’ll have the least enjoyable Star Trek convention in history converge on their studio lot. ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2009, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-old-and-the-new/518169/24 "2009-11-19T22:16:09Z")
> [@LiveOnAPlane](#): > > I’m gonna go out on a limb and say pretty much all of them, IMHO. > > The reason being that the Romulans arrive at a point of time way early, just before James T. Kirk is born, and then proceed to make some seriously major changes to things. > > So major that it is a flaming miracle that young Kirk even wound up in Starfleet instead of in jail. > > I think it likely that none of the episodes in TOS will occur in this one…which is not to say that they can’t have equally “interesting” adventures; they’ll just be different. > > Just my 2 cents, feel free to disagree. Well, it was really just a fun little question when I posted it. Unless they plan on making a new TV show, its all just pie in the sky. Personally I’d rather they came up with new stuff than rehash the old stuff. Well, maybe they could keep the space hippies. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2009, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-old-and-the-new/518169/25 "2009-11-19T22:57:00Z")
> [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](#): > > I just saw on [io9.com](http://io9.com) that Nestor Carbonelle (did I get the name right?) may play Khan. That could work for me. Does he look as cool as [Ricardo Montalban](http://thephilter.com/oldimages/z105087351.gif) when he’s a hundred years old without a shirt? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2009, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-old-and-the-new/518169/26 "2009-11-19T23:02:24Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > No, they had to make it abundantly clear that this is all an alternate time-line, or else they’ll have the least enjoyable Star Trek convention in history converge on their studio lot. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2009, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-old-and-the-new/518169/27 "2009-11-19T23:38:01Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Does he look as cool as [Ricardo Montalban](http://thephilter.com/oldimages/z105087351.gif) when he’s a hundred years old without a shirt? > :dubious: Yes, real _and_ spectacular. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-old-and-the-new/518169/28 "2009-11-20T03:03:52Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Yes, real _and_ spectacular. [Kirk]I have never doubted your Trek judgement…[Until now](http://www.lostfanatic.net/userimages/user2724_1169401886.jpg).[/Kirk] ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-old-and-the-new/518169/29 "2009-11-20T03:45:40Z")
I thought including Nimoy in the 2009 movie was fantastic. It was just the right touch for me. One more original cast member would’ve tipped the balance too much - and if you get just one, Spock is the best choice. In the end, Nimoy-Spock states that’s he’s spending the time he has to help his people, and if that’s the last we see of him on the big screen, it is a very fitting farewell. One of his biggest goals in the movie was to get Kirk and young Spock to become a space-faring, ass kicking, duo. So it’s an easy handwave to say that he’ll keep the knowledge he has about the future to himself – which would be somewhat limited anyhow, as _his_ future might not mesh so well with this alternate future. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-old-and-the-new/518169/30 "2009-11-20T03:48:29Z")
I kinda like these Klingons. I’m pretty sure the mask comes off. ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-old-and-the-new/518169/31 "2009-11-20T04:19:24Z")
> [@Tengu](#): > > He did in the movie, too. He drives past him in the stolen car. Not exactly. J.T. Kirk can be heard calling out the name Johnny as he drives past. It’s true that the actor filmed scenes as George, but they and the character were cut from the film. That doesn’t mean George couldn’t appear in a sequel, probably played by a different actor, but he has not yet been established. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-old-and-the-new/518169/32 "2009-11-20T04:26:02Z")
> [@drastic\_quench](#): > > I thought including Nimoy in the 2009 movie was fantastic. Meh. They did it for money, not art. Bear in mind that Shtaner refused to wear the EDIC thingie, but Nimoy did not. It got Mrs. Plant to go. My step daughter was present, and I explained that due to my having seen spoilers Mrs. Plant would probably eviscerate the person sitting next to her, Step Daughter would sit between us. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-old-and-the-new/518169/33 "2009-11-20T17:31:17Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Meh. > They did it for money, not art. > Bear in mind that Shtaner refused to wear the EDIC thingie, but Nimoy did not. > It got Mrs. Plant to go. My step daughter was present, and I explained that due to my having seen spoilers Mrs. Plant would probably eviscerate the person sitting next to her, Step Daughter would sit between us. 🙂 IDIC. Infinite Diversity through Infinite Combinations. ETA: I am such a loser. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-old-and-the-new/518169/34 "2009-11-20T20:10:46Z")
> [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](#): > > IDIC. Infinite Diversity through Infinite Combinations. Thanks. I don’t suppose this could be our little secret, hunh? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-old-and-the-new/518169/35 "2009-11-20T21:04:23Z")
One big difference, that really bugs me, is that in the new universe the powers that be are a bunch of boobs, while in TOS StarFleet, while not perfect, was pretty with it. I think it comes from Roddenberry actually being in the Navy, and understanding the military, while the new people just don’t get it. The old Kirk was a genius, but he also was a great captain from experience and from having made plenty of mistakes as he came up. The new Kirk just got anointed because he was the star and they figured the audiences would be bored with him putting in his apprenticeship. I hope in the next movie he has to face his lack of experience, but I doubt it. And don’t get me started on the new Spock… ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-old-and-the-new/518169/36 "2009-11-20T21:29:19Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I think it comes from Roddenberry actually being in the Navy, I believe he was in the US Army Air Corps. Flew B-17s or B-24s. Come to think of it, he was a motorcycle cop too, chased some guy down to give him a script, or is that a UL? ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-old-and-the-new/518169/37 "2009-11-20T21:32:22Z")
I may be wrong, but I am getting a sense that they (Paramount?) want to move away from thinking of Star Fleet as a classic military type organisation. The captain of the _Kelvin_ verbally “appoints” Kirk (Jimmy’s dad) to be the captain while he’s away, and Captain Pike “appoints” Spock as C.O., and J. T. Kirk as X.O. when he leaves. If there was a rigid (well defined, military style) chain of command on the ship, promotions/appointments would be unecessary to state, and appointing Kirk (who was pretty much just a stowaway) as X.O. would be contrary to that (presumadely already established prior to Earth departure) chain of command. Pike doesn’t inform anyone else, either. “Hey Fred? Yeah… it’s me. Fine, you? Oh, by the way, just so you know, I’m doing a little field promotion here, giving this stowaway slash cadet the Executive Officer job. Now Fred… Fred… hold on Fred. Yes, I still like you… Fred, tears aren’t necessary, and this begging is unseemly.” However, if there was no real military style rank structure, then these scenes would make at least slightly more sense. The Star Fleet beaucracy appoints Pike as Captain, and he is free to pick and choose from a pool of folks, and fit them into job slots. (They still call him “Admiral” Pike, or whatever. Maybe for pay scale purposes? 😛 ) Almost like the Post Master General is not really a General (in the Army). ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-old-and-the-new/518169/38 "2009-11-20T21:36:25Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Come to think of it, he was a motorcycle cop too, chased some guy down to give him a script, or is that a UL? That story was in Shatner’s book, FWIW. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-old-and-the-new/518169/39 "2009-11-20T21:40:00Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > I may be wrong, but I am getting a sense that they (Paramount?) want to move away from thinking of Star Fleet as a classic military type organisation You’re not wrong, just ~22 years slow. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-old-and-the-new/518169/40 "2009-11-20T21:41:20Z")
> [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](#): > > That story was in Shatner’s book, FWIW. Thanks. Surely you remember the motorcycle cop in _Star Trek: 90210?_ 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-old-and-the-new/518169.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-old-and-the-new/518169.md?page=3)