# Star Trek: The old and the New **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 19, 2009, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-old-and-the-new/518169 "2009-11-19T17:38:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-old-and-the-new/518169/41 "2009-11-20T21:46:44Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > You’re not wrong, just ~22 years slow. Story of my life. ---
**Author:** ![Powers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Powers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Powers)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-old-and-the-new/518169/42 "2009-11-20T21:54:18Z")
> [@drastic\_quench](#): > > So it’s an easy handwave to say that he’ll keep the knowledge he has about the future to himself – which would be somewhat limited anyhow, as _his_ future might not mesh so well with this alternate future. It’s not top-level canon, but the novelization makes clear that Spock Prime will be doing everything he can to record what he knows before he kicks the bucket. Which is, of course, the only logical course of action. Things like the Planet Eater, the Borg, the Guardian of Forever, Q, the Bajoran wormhole, and probably the S.S. Botany Bay are all things that should be unaffected by the change in timeline, and many of them represent dire threats that were addressed in the Prime timeline only by the good fortune of having Kirk, Picard, or Sisko in the right place at the right time. Powers &8^] P.S. and not to mention the damn humpback whale probe. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-old-and-the-new/518169/43 "2009-11-20T23:42:31Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I believe he was in the US Army Air Corps. Flew B-17s or B-24s. > Come to think of it, he was a motorcycle cop too, chased some guy down to give him a script, or is that a UL? I thought he was a Navy Pilot. If he was in the Army Air Corp, he at least served with naval people. He was indeed a cop. I remember the story, but have no idea of its truth. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-old-and-the-new/518169/44 "2009-11-20T23:47:57Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > You’re not wrong, just ~22 years slow. True, but this was worse. As far as I can tell they are going to have as much military discipline as a bunch of kids on a roadtrip to spring break in Ft. Lauderdale. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2009, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-old-and-the-new/518169/45 "2009-11-21T00:45:33Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > they are going to have as much military discipline as a bunch of kids on a roadtrip to spring break in Ft. Lauderdale. I have horrible visions of Uhura passing beers up to Sulu at the helm of a war seven _Enterprise_…I shall not sleep tonight, and I blame you. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2009, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-old-and-the-new/518169/46 "2009-11-21T01:04:43Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I thought he was a Navy Pilot. If he was in the Army Air Corp, he at least served with naval people. He was indeed a cop. I remember the story, but have no idea of its truth. [US Army Air Corps.](http://www.nndb.com/people/503/000022437/) The article says he served in the Pacific Theater, so he probably was involved with Navy people. ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2009, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-old-and-the-new/518169/47 "2009-11-21T01:10:01Z")
> [@Jolly\_Roger](#): > > [ul] > [li]Maybe I missed it, but didn’t Kirk have a brother in TOS? If his brother does not exist thanks to the timeline being altered, then will the episode with the Fried Egg Monsters (I can’t recall the name) happen? In that episode Kirk went to visit his brother and only his nephew survived the attack on the planet. (also we find out that Vulcans have an inner eyelid) [/li][li]In The Original Series Kirk says that he was an officer on the USS Farragut. (Can’t remember the ep. name) One of his junior officers is the son of the former captain of that ship. This man becomes integral in the plot to destroy the blood sucking cloud monster. But in the new timeline Kirk didn’t surve on the Farragut. So perhaps the Enterprise will not encounter that threat.[/li][li]In the Original Series The Federation is unaware that Romulans and Vulcans are pretty much the same race. They had never seen a Romulan until the episode where they see the Romulan Commander on the screen. But now they’ve seen Nero. Will that alter things in the new timeline in any way?[/li][li]The Menagerie won’t happen unless its heavily retconned. Captain Pike was last seen in a wheelchair but otherwise healthy, not a mute horribly scarred crippled man like in that episode.[/li][li]Amok Time won’t happen since T’Pring was squished into a singularity with the rest of Vulcan. Unless its retconned to say she was off planet at the time, I guess. [/li][/ul] I’m guessing Operation Annihilate would be quite literal, they’d just stop the spread of the parasites by nuking them from orbit. That or someone on the science team would remain cured, but blind. The Menagerie could happen, Pike left the Enterprise healthy enough to run a training ship in TOS continuity. No reason why he can’t hop out of the fat and back into the frying pan. Amok Time won’t need to happen with _any_ remaining Vulcan female, because NuSpock doesn’t seem to mind who he gets it on with now 😛 > [@Emily\_Litella](#): > > In the Wrath of Khan I noticed they put those (bleeeech - shudder) scorpion-like bugs in people’s ears to get them to spill the truth. In the new alternate timeline (that’s how I see it) they put them in people’s mouths. Putting them in the ear seems worse to me than putting them in someone’s mouth. It’s kind of like Fear Factor. The Ceti Eel larvae were supposed to wrap around the cerebral cortex (without spilling a lot of blood en route from the ear) making the subject rather susceptible to orders. The Centaurian slugs were simply supposed to thrash their way out of any enclosed space (according to the new DVD extras) so were a form of torture rather than manipulation. > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I believe he was in the US Army Air Corps. Flew B-17s or B-24s. > Come to think of it, he was a motorcycle cop too, chased some guy down to give him a script, or is that a UL? He was an Army Air Corps pilot, flew B-17s at least. He was a civilian airline pilot between that and becoming a police officer. The way I heard that last bit, he came into a restaurant and handed a script to someone from a studio while in uniform, then took off again. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2009, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-old-and-the-new/518169/48 "2009-11-21T01:28:48Z")
I’d rather they not rehash the old TOS plots. I don’t want to see Khan again–what would be the point? I can see Khan all I want right now (and who would be better than Montalban?). I would prefer an entirely different time line, but with the same characters and relational dynamics. We could lose Sulu and Chekov and that stupid animal of newScotty. (never a big fan of Sulu or Chekov). I liked the reboot. Forget the ridiculous plot and its holes. They got the chemistry right between the Big 3 and that matters. BUT–newKirk is waaaaay too cocky w/o cause in this movie. I also hope he truly faces his limitations in the next film. I know this franchise plays to adolescent male fantasies and all, but dayum–don’t some of them at least acknowledge that intelligence, knowledge and procedure matter? Kirk Prime was well rounded (he read those “long hairs” ie the philosophers), cultured, and a gentleman. He could be (and was) also a man of action, a formidable opponent and not above using women to get what he needed (whatever that may have been). This newKirk is none of those. For me, it’s the meshing of the renaissance man (Kirk Prime) with the “fantasy” of space (ok, sci/fi, but really, they’re mostly adventure stories) that appeals to me. I really don’t want to see the franchise turned into Starfleet Goes On Spring Break! but I have my fears that it will… And what is this about Shatner wanting to be in the movie but wouldn’t wear something? Someone catch me up, please! ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2009, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-old-and-the-new/518169/49 "2009-11-21T01:33:06Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > I’d rather they not rehash the old TOS plots. Nor I. Mrs. Plant would kill somebody. > [@eleanorigby](#): > > And what is this about Shatner wanting to be in the movie but wouldn’t wear something? Someone catch me up, please! In the series episode _Is There No Truth In Beauty?_ Nimoy wore the IDIC necklace after Shatner refused. It was an advertising ploy of Roddenberry’s so that replicas of it could be sold. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2009, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-old-and-the-new/518169/50 "2009-11-21T01:46:55Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Nor I. Mrs. Plant would kill somebody. > In the series episode _Is There No Truth In Beauty?_ Nimoy wore the IDIC necklace after Shatner refused. It was an advertising ploy of Roddenberry’s so that replicas of it could be sold. Right–I knew about that (I just read Shatner’s book), but didn’t remember what it was called. I am confused: I thought someone upthread said that Shatner turned down a role in this reboot because of the IDIC medal. Oh, wait. :smack: I get it now. Never mind… I am reading Ashes of Eden right now. The ghostwriter (or Shatner-whomever) has annoying way of rendering every sentence its own paragraph. To add emphasis. And perhaps build suspense. It gets annoying. See what I mean? But the plot is pretty good and what the hell, eh. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2009, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-old-and-the-new/518169/51 "2009-11-21T02:35:21Z")
I think Shatner was angry that he _wasn’t_ asked to be in the movie. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2009, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-old-and-the-new/518169/52 "2009-11-21T15:34:51Z")
I don’t think so. He killed off Kirk and it would have made the reboot that much more convoluted to have included him. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2009, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-old-and-the-new/518169/53 "2009-11-21T16:17:56Z")
Shatner is pushing hard to be in the next one, after it being initially reported by others and denied by him that he turned down being in this last one. Frankly, he’s such a glory and attention hog that I think he did it deliberately just to get his name in the papers again and try to give him some monetary leverage. I have NO interest in seeing him in the next one or any other reboot timeline sequel. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2009, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-old-and-the-new/518169/54 "2009-11-21T21:35:58Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > I have NO interest in seeing him in the next one or any other reboot timeline sequel. So you want him… _GONE!_ _GONE!_ _GONE!_ Right? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2009, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-old-and-the-new/518169/55 "2009-11-21T23:39:03Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > I know this franchise plays to adolescent male fantasies and all, but dayum–don’t some of them at least acknowledge that intelligence, knowledge and procedure matter? You want intelligence and knowledge? Correct procedure: let Spock handle it. And let Scotty in on the action if it’s an engineering question; problem solved, whatever it was. McCoy is the go-to guy for medical questions, Uhura deciphers stuff, Sulu has fencing – but, really, if you’ve got Spock and Scotty in your brain trust, you’re pretty much good to go. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2009, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-old-and-the-new/518169/56 "2009-11-21T23:44:48Z")
Anybody watched this with the Rifftrax yet? Any good? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-old-and-the-new/518169/57 "2009-11-22T19:11:42Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Meh. > They did it for money, not art. > Bear in mind that Shtaner refused to wear the EDIC thingie, but Nimoy did not. > It got Mrs. Plant to go. My step daughter was present, and I explained that due to my having seen spoilers Mrs. Plant would probably eviscerate the person sitting next to her, Step Daughter would sit between us. 🙂 I don’t know. Without the timeline crossover, I don’t think I would have accepted the destruction of Vulcan being permanent, nor Kirk’s assholery. It would have been too much change for the new characters. With the timeline crossover, they can make the timeline change do what whatever they want. And, if you are going to crossover the timeline, you have to have something that represents the old timeline, or its pointless. A character from the past is an excellent way to pull that off. (We knew nothing about Nero, so he wouldn’t work.) ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-old-and-the-new/518169/58 "2009-11-23T01:21:48Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > You want intelligence and knowledge? Correct procedure: let Spock handle it. And let Scotty in on the action if it’s an engineering question; problem solved, whatever it was. McCoy is the go-to guy for medical questions, Uhura deciphers stuff, Sulu has fencing – but, really, if you’ve got Spock and Scotty in your brain trust, you’re pretty much good to go. Baloney. Kirk did plenty and also held all these (sometimes) disruptive factions together. Spock when he was in command, failed to inspire loyalty in his crew, and his logical decisions almost got the crew killed. Kirk is key. He just needs to be LESS of a teen male wank-fest and more of the hero that he is. It’s not enough to be cocky and get lucky (with women and on the bridge)–Kirk Prime had remarkable intelligence, gallantry and decorum, as well as balls. Kirk 2 has balls. IOW, the writers need to give more depth to this character. I highly doubt Shatner wants in on the next one. He is 79 years old. I don’t get the hate for Shatner. Sure, he’s got a big ego. But he was (and is) rightly protective of his character (as is Spock and all the others). I agree with Nimoy–he (in an interview) says that ST:TOS owes a great debt to Shatner for bringing what he did to the show and the films. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-old-and-the-new/518169/59 "2009-11-23T02:17:21Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > I’d rather they not rehash the old TOS plots. I don’t want to see Khan again–what would be the point? I can see Khan all I want right now (and who would be better than Montalban?). I would prefer an entirely different time line, but with the same characters and relational dynamics. Well the same story with present day CGI would be a thing of beauty. Genesis, mano-y-mano starships wailing on each other at point blank without sheilds, whats not to love. As we were fond of saying in the BG threads…MORE SPLODEY. A Wrath of Khan Redux would be an excellent vehicle, original charachters or not. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-old-and-the-new/518169/60 "2009-11-23T02:30:31Z")
> [@drachillix](#): > > A Wrath of Khan Redux would be an excellent vehicle, original charachters or not. I’m sure I don’t remember the lines correctly, but here goes: Real Trek: Spock: He is quite intelligent, but not experienced. He evidences two dimensional thinking. Kirk: Down 2000 meters Trek 90210: Spock:He is quite intelligent, but not experienced. Kirk: So? Neither am I. Spock:He evidences two dimensional thinking. Kirk: Say what? Kahn: Fire! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-old-and-the-new/518169.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-old-and-the-new/518169.md?page=4)