# Star Trek - The Pegasus would you charge Riker with Treason? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 23, 2015, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-pegasus-would-you-charge-riker-with-treason/741165 "2015-12-23T11:28:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2015, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-pegasus-would-you-charge-riker-with-treason/741165/21 "2015-12-25T01:06:14Z")
I thought the OP was going to be about how Riker got away with supporting Captain Dumbass many years ago. My fanwank was that he had a lot of leverage due to Best of Both Worlds. I _think_ this is before the Cardassian two parter where he gets relieved. By then he used up all his brownie points ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2015, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-pegasus-would-you-charge-riker-with-treason/741165/22 "2015-12-25T20:14:04Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > The Romulans were already in the system looking for the Pegasus, the jig was up and it was only a matter of time before they found out. Picard did the only sensible thing by using and then revealing the technology since they couldn’t get out of the asteroid any other way. By copping to it and arresting those responsible, Picard showed that it was rogue elements in Starfleet that violated the treaty, not the Federation itself. It defused the situation and probably prevented additional conflict Yeah, that’s what I was thinking. Regarding why the Federation agreed to the restriction in the first place, think of it this way: the Romulans apparently have a tactical doctrine that relies on stealth technology, but the Federation apparently has a tactical doctrine that relies on other features of starships (possibly speed or maneuverability) - but the two doctrines apparently are pretty well-matched. Why shouldn’t the Federation promise not to develop a technology that would require new tactics and training without much benefit, in exchange for something that the Federation really wanted (perhaps the Neutral Zone)? ---
**Author:** ![tingbudong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tingbudong/32/520_2.png) [@tingbudong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tingbudong)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2015, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-pegasus-would-you-charge-riker-with-treason/741165/23 "2015-12-25T21:05:47Z")
I think there are some novels out there that pull the Pegasus into the greater Section 31 narrative. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-pegasus-would-you-charge-riker-with-treason/741165/24 "2015-12-28T17:08:59Z")
Must be more recent novels. Didn’t Section 31 get invented during DS9 for the whole changeling virus thing? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-pegasus-would-you-charge-riker-with-treason/741165/25 "2015-12-28T17:17:04Z")
Section 31 first appeared to us viewers on DS9, but it existed even back in Archer’s time: [Harris (Section 31) | Memory Alpha | Fandom](http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Harris_(Section_31)) I agree that “The _Pegasus_” was a dumb episode. A treaty is an important undertaking by a government and ought to be scrupulously followed, but Riker had no right or obligation to _mutiny_ under those circumstances, especially since doing so endangered his ship. The far better course would be to report Pressman to much higher Starfleet brass as soon as they got back to a starbase. If nothing happened as a result, Riker could contact the Federation Council or even the media. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-pegasus-would-you-charge-riker-with-treason/741165/26 "2015-12-28T18:08:34Z")
I meant like chronologically in real life. The Section 31 idea was written in DS9, now they’ve been retconned and show up even in JJ Abrams’ reboot. ---
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-pegasus-would-you-charge-riker-with-treason/741165/27 "2015-12-28T19:15:34Z")
> [@Gothic](#): > > What made it even worse was the horrible call back to it in the Enterprise finale. It’s amazing how during the course of events, both Riker and Troi managed to get significantly older and fatter, and then slim down again repeatedly. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-pegasus-would-you-charge-riker-with-treason/741165/28 "2015-12-28T19:22:18Z")
> [@leahcim](#): > > It’s amazing how during the course of events, both Riker and Troi managed to get significantly older and fatter, and then slim down again repeatedly. TV magic. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-pegasus-would-you-charge-riker-with-treason/741165/29 "2015-12-28T23:35:01Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > A treaty is an important undertaking by a government and ought to be scrupulously followed, but Riker had no right or obligation to _mutiny_ under those circumstances, especially since doing so endangered his ship. The far better course would be to report Pressman to much higher Starfleet brass as soon as they got back to a starbase. If nothing happened as a result, Riker could contact the Federation Council or even the media. The mutiny had nothing directly to do with the treaty as I recall. The ship had been heavily damaged by the original experiment, and Pressman was apparently doing nothing to aid the crew or prevent the ship’s destruction, so the senior staff tried to relieve Pressman. Pressman called this mutiny and Riker supported him, but had the XO survived to tell his side of the story, it might have been Pressman who was courtmartialed for deriliction, over and above any issue with the treaty. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-pegasus-would-you-charge-riker-with-treason/741165/30 "2015-12-29T00:07:44Z")
I just went and watched this episode, and I believe that **anyplace57** ’s analysis might not be exactly correct. To sum up, we have a man who invented a dangerous technology to upend a major international treaty without the knowledge or approval of his government. Possible consequences could include destabilizing the Federation and/or a massive interstellar war they might not win. Further, Pressman not only endangered the entire Federation, but in the specific put his crew in serious risk with a technology he was evidently unable to duplicate later (or he wouldn’t have waited all those years). He then lied about his actions and ordered his subordinates to lie about it as well. He later puts a second ship in danger, conceals the nature of that danger, and threatens to destroy a fellow officer’s career for performing his duty. Note that it’s also due to his behavior that the ship was ever in danger of being found by the Romulans. Riker isn’t being smug or idealistic here. He knows that what happened here isn’t some virtuous mission for the greater good with no regard for the danger or the stakes involved. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-pegasus-would-you-charge-riker-with-treason/741165/31 "2015-12-29T00:37:06Z")
The central question is whether this was a cowboy project started and run by Pressmen. If this was a renegade project he cooked up with his ship’s engineer then the crew’s mutiny makes sense. Riker figured it out and regretted defending him. I had the impression developing a cloaking device would require significant resources and personnel. A full engineering team and lab at a star base. That means a group like Section 31 would be behind it. Pressmen was a member and the Captain selected to field test the cloak. Purely my speculation. None of this was brought up or explained in the episode. Although Pressmen alluded to having powerful friends that would support him. I still think it should have been handled internally by Starfleet. Rather than exposing it to the Romulans. The episode certainly left a lot of unexplained questions. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-pegasus-would-you-charge-riker-with-treason/741165/32 "2015-12-29T02:58:49Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > The central question is whether this was a cowboy project started and run by Pressmen. If this was a renegade project he cooked up with his ship’s engineer then the crew’s mutiny makes sense. Riker figured it out and regretted defending him. > > I had the impression developing a cloaking device would require significant resources and personnel. A full engineering team and lab at a star base. That means a group like Section 31 would be behind it. Pressmen was a member and the Captain selected to field test the cloak. Purely my speculation. None of this was brought up or explained in the episode. Although Pressmen alluded to having powerful friends that would support him. I understand where you’re coming from. However, in the actual episode it’s very clear that Pressman had no authorization and used his rank and authority to keep the incident quiet. He had a few like-minded allies, including at least of very high rank, but it wasn’t something they were willing to admit to publicly. For one thing, nobody ever tried to restart the project, which means that it was most definitely outside official channels. > [@](#): > > I still think it should have been handled internally by Starfleet. Rather than exposing it to the Romulans. The episode certainly left a lot of unexplained questions. Again, I see your view on it. Picard chose to disengage the cloak, most likely for two reason. First, he’d just seen what happened if you didn’t use the cloak properly - and he was still in a big field of asteroids, hence it wasn’t what you call safe. They weren’t even 100% sure it would get them out of the trap in the first place, but the alternative was to let themselves, the Enterprise, and the phase cloak be captured. Second, doing this forces the issue into the open. You see being able to hide this as a strength; Picard’s explicit purpose was to ensure that was not possible. He didn’t want Pressman or his allies to be able to cover it up. Given that Pressman explicitly threatened Picard and Riker and had done so before, this was a serious concern. If the Federation is a democracy. If it chooses to cancel the treaty and is willing to face the consequences, then Picard would abide by that decision whether he agreed with it or not. Edit: I also want to note that I don’t feel this episode was preachy at all. It’s a deep character piece about conflicting ideas of duty, and what’s right in a tense position. The episode isn’t about Riker boldly declaring good against evil. It’s about Riker being torn apart by two men. Both of them are in a position of official authority over him, but what they are asking of him, and what his duty requires, is so opposed it simply can’t be reconciled in the end. The episode doesn’t even really condemn Pressman. He’s not depicted as a monster, but as a man blinded by his goals. He’s able to talk coherently about events with other people, and he firmly believes his actions are right. TO me, this is actually one of the best episodes of Star Trek, and perhaps the best Riker-centered piece in the series. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-pegasus-would-you-charge-riker-with-treason/741165/33 "2015-12-29T03:49:26Z")
I hadn’t thought about Riker in that way. I’ll have to rewatch the episode and focus more on his motivations and conflict. TNG has been running on BBC America pretty frequently and I can see it there. I’m glad that I started this thread and got other opinions and reactions to the episode. Funny how they totally ignored the original series episode where Kirk and Spock go undercover and steal a clocking device. The outcome of that bit of espionage was never brought up again. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-pegasus-would-you-charge-riker-with-treason/741165/34 "2015-12-29T05:54:51Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > …Funny how they totally ignored the original series episode where Kirk and Spock go undercover and steal a clo[a]king device. The outcome of that bit of espionage was never brought up again. “Military secrets are the most fleeting of all.” - Cmdr. Spock ---
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-pegasus-would-you-charge-riker-with-treason/741165/35 "2015-12-29T16:51:39Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > I understand where you’re coming from. However, in the actual episode it’s very clear that Pressman had no authorization and used his rank and authority to keep the incident quiet. He had a few like-minded allies, including at least of very high rank, but it wasn’t something they were willing to admit to publicly. For one thing, nobody ever tried to restart the project, which means that it was most definitely outside official channels. Who said they didn’t restart the project? They just did a better job of keeping the new one secret. Pressman’s objective in the episode was to recover the tech so that the Romulans wouldn’t get it, not because it was a unique piece of hardware that the federation has no other copies of. I imagine that the Federation actually has tonnes of cloaking devices about. They don’t put them on ships because of the treaty, but they definitely are developing them in labs if just to keep up with what the Romulans have and have models with which to test methods of seeing through Romulan cloaks. This one was more provocative because it is actually ahead of the equivalent Romulan technology. > [@](#): > > Again, I see your view on it. Picard chose to disengage the cloak, most likely for two reason. First, he’d just seen what happened if you didn’t use the cloak properly - and he was still in a big field of asteroids, hence it wasn’t what you call safe. They weren’t even 100% sure it would get them out of the trap in the first place, but the alternative was to let themselves, the Enterprise, and the phase cloak be captured. Second, doing this forces the issue into the open. You see being able to hide this as a strength; Picard’s explicit purpose was to ensure that was not possible. He didn’t want Pressman or his allies to be able to cover it up. Given that Pressman explicitly threatened Picard and Riker and had done so before, this was a serious concern. If the Federation is a democracy. If it chooses to cancel the treaty and is willing to face the consequences, then Picard would abide by that decision whether he agreed with it or not. Likely as not, Picard only gave the Romulans information they already had. After all, the warbird wasn’t just “in the area”. They probably knew what the Pegasus was all about even if the Federation was not making commentary. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-pegasus-would-you-charge-riker-with-treason/741165/36 "2015-12-29T20:54:26Z")
It was definitely treason when they realized that the Pegasus originally had its own civilian fleet to escort, but cannibalized it and abandoned everyone they couldn’t press into service to get revenge on the Cylons. Oh, wait, different Pegasus. ---
**Author:** ![Chihuahua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dec6dc/32.png) [@Chihuahua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chihuahua)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-pegasus-would-you-charge-riker-with-treason/741165/37 "2015-12-29T22:19:58Z")
The kind of person who wrote this episode is probably the kind of person who thinks Snowden is a hero. Real life isn’t so black-and-white. This is a problem that originated with Roddenberry and plagued both TNG and Voyager throughout their entire runs. DS9 and Enterprise both did a much better job of portraying the moral ambiguity that goes along with war and espionage. Both shows have some really good episodes where the heroes have to do evil things for a good purpose. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-the-pegasus-would-you-charge-riker-with-treason/741165.md?page=1)