# "Star Trek TNG" nitpick: How could the Ferengi not have scientists? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 12, 2005, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-nitpick-how-could-the-ferengi-not-have-scientists/325860 "2005-10-12T05:58:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2005, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-nitpick-how-could-the-ferengi-not-have-scientists/325860/21 "2005-10-12T17:13:41Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > He was just being playing to stereotypes and being facetious, like “American ettiqutte expert,” “French hygenist,” or “lover of British cuisine.” Or “logically consistent Star Trek plot”. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![marque\_elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71c47a/32.png) [@marque\_elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marque_elf)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2005, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-nitpick-how-could-the-ferengi-not-have-scientists/325860/22 "2005-10-12T17:14:10Z")
> [@TwistofFate](#): > > Have you ever thought that noone else caught the racism inherent in the Ferengi depiction because _it wasn’t there?_ I’m curious. Are you Jewish? I am and I believe that it was there. It may’ve been unintentional on the part of the people who created the shows bible but it was there. Where does offense come from? I think that the current definition of sexual harrasment includes a section dealing with conduct that some other person mght be offended by even if there was no intent to give offense. Using that as a standard, then _DS9_’s characterization created offense in the mind of myself and at least one other poster on this thread. That makes it racist to me. You might not see it there but others do. Who’s standard is then the correct interpretation? I’m not trying to start a great debate here. Nor am I trying to accuse you of being unsympathetic. There is enough room here for us to agree to disagree. Perhaps I offend too easily but I believe that the Ferengi were thinly disguised caricatures of Jewish people and I was offended by it. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2005, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-nitpick-how-could-the-ferengi-not-have-scientists/325860/23 "2005-10-12T17:15:27Z")
> [@TwistofFate](#): > > Have you ever thought that noone else caught the racism inherent in the Ferengi depiction because _it wasn’t there?_ Look, I don’t think the Star Trek writers are racists. In fact they lean absurdly far in the opposite direction–to being painfully politically correct. I just thought the “Yankee Trader” was funny. It was like they had a staff meeting and someone said “Big No-uh, Ears? Lechers? Obssesed with money? This is an awful lot like a Jewish stereotype!” “I know, we’ll have Data compare them to Yankee Traders!” “Yankee Traders? What the hell is that? George Steinbrenner?” “Never mind. It’ll let everyone know we’re not stereotyping Jews.” “Good thinking, Don. You always were the smart one. Now let’s go back to doing coke off this hooker’s ass!” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2005, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-nitpick-how-could-the-ferengi-not-have-scientists/325860/24 "2005-10-12T17:19:12Z")
> [@Larry Borgia](#): > > “Good thinking, Don. You always were the smart one. Now let’s go back to doing coke off this hooker’s ass!” 🙂😃🙂😃🙂😃 ;j ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2005, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-nitpick-how-could-the-ferengi-not-have-scientists/325860/25 "2005-10-12T18:04:31Z")
> [@marque elf](#): > > I’m curious. Are you Jewish? I am and I believe that it was there. Nyeh. I’m a Jew and I never picked up on it. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Wright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Steve\_Wright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_Wright)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2005, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-nitpick-how-could-the-ferengi-not-have-scientists/325860/26 "2005-10-12T18:11:23Z")
Plenty of people have commented on the quasi-Jewish stereotyping of the Ferengi before … it’s obvious even to normally oblivious Anglicans like myself. I might add, it’s only _one_ reason why I’m irritated by the Ferengi … they’re either weak villains or unfunny comic relief, and I don’t much care for either. The whole “monolithic alien culture” thing is, basically, lazy writing - which, sadly, is what I’ve come to expect from the _Star Trek_ universe these days. Not that they’re alone in this - my favourite example is Vega Nexos, a walk-on character in a Pertwee-era _Doctor Who_ story. His people are, he assures everyone, “a peaceful race of mining engineers”. What, I say to myself, the _whole species_? Not a single one of them rebels against the system and becomes, say, a geologist? Unbelievable. ---
**Author:** ![chrisk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@chrisk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chrisk)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2005, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-nitpick-how-could-the-ferengi-not-have-scientists/325860/27 "2005-10-12T18:28:42Z")
> [@Steve Wright](#): > > Not that they’re alone in this - my favourite example is Vega Nexos, a walk-on character in a Pertwee-era _Doctor Who_ story. His people are, he assures everyone, “a peaceful race of mining engineers”. What, I say to myself, the _whole species_? Not a single one of them rebels against the system and becomes, say, a geologist? Unbelievable. Oh, and that couldn’t possibly be a picturesque and not-entirely-accurate way of saying ‘a race generally reknowned for peaceful dispositions and the fact that some of us are very good mining engineers’?? (Of course, I don’t know the whole context.) 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2005, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-nitpick-how-could-the-ferengi-not-have-scientists/325860/28 "2005-10-12T18:59:01Z")
About the monolithic culture, look at it this way: in Kirks time the Klingon government had aggressive expansionist policies. In those times to prosper in the military you had to be aggressive, brutal and cruel. Therefore, every Klingon that Kirk happened to meet was brutal and cruel. By Picards time the government had become more interested in honour than conquest, and thus the most honourable people prospered in the military. Therefore every Klingon that Picard met was, or pretended to be, a man of honour. I’m sure there were millions of ordinary Klingon civilians working as farmers, pastry chefs or stand up comedians, but we just never got to see them. As for the Ferrengi, we got to see many individuals each with their own set of values. Quark, Rom & Nog were three very different people, and none of them like the pirates that Picard encountered first. No monolithic culture there, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2005, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-nitpick-how-could-the-ferengi-not-have-scientists/325860/29 "2005-10-12T19:01:36Z")
> [@Peter Morris](#): > > About the monolithic culture, look at it this way: in Kirks time the Klingon government had aggressive expansionist policies. In those times to prosper in the military you had to be aggressive, brutal and cruel. Therefore, every Klingon that Kirk happened to meet was brutal and cruel. By Picards time the government had become more interested in honour than conquest, and thus the most honourable people prospered in the military. Therefore every Klingon that Picard met was, or pretended to be, a man of honour. I’m sure there were millions of ordinary Klingon civilians working as farmers, pastry chefs or stand up comedians, but we just never got to see them. > > As for the Ferrengi, we got to see many individuals each with their own set of values. Quark, Rom & Nog were three very different people, and none of them like the pirates that Picard encountered first. No monolithic culture there, IMHO. Come to think of it, I believe there was a Klingon chef or something on DS9. ---
**Author:** ![chrisk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@chrisk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chrisk)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2005, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-nitpick-how-could-the-ferengi-not-have-scientists/325860/30 "2005-10-12T20:35:19Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > Come to think of it, I believe there was a Klingon chef or something on DS9. Well, you’d imagine there would be one in the Klingon restaurant, but I’m not sure I remember ever seeing him. Mostly it was just someone saying “I’m going to go to the klingon restaurant instead” when they got mad at Quark, or Jadzia sitting at a table sipping a klingon coffee in the morning. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2005, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-nitpick-how-could-the-ferengi-not-have-scientists/325860/31 "2005-10-12T20:41:19Z")
He turned up a few times singing Klingon opera to the diners. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2005, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-nitpick-how-could-the-ferengi-not-have-scientists/325860/32 "2005-10-12T20:46:31Z")
> [@marque elf](#): > > I entered this thread to comment on this point. I always felt that the Ferengis were just a Jewish stereotype cloaked in big ears. To make it worse, many of the actors who played Ferengi on the show were Jewish. I offer as proof Aron Eisenberg, Armin Shimmerman, Andrea Martin. I wasn’t offened enough to stop watching _DS9_ but it always bothered me that nobody else caught the racism inherent in the Ferengi depiction. You can add Max Grodénchik to this list, though I don’t agree with your premise. I think incompetent rather than malicious writing is at fault. What I found more disturbing was an episode of DS9 where Jake had been quietly tutoring Nog in basic literacy. A space-faring race that doesn’t promote _basic literacy?!_ Aside from being an incredibly **un** Jewish trait, it don’t make a lick o’ sense! ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2005, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-nitpick-how-could-the-ferengi-not-have-scientists/325860/33 "2005-10-12T21:47:30Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > What I found more disturbing was an episode of DS9 where Jake had been quietly tutoring Nog in basic literacy. A space-faring race that doesn’t promote _basic literacy?!_ Aside from being an incredibly **un** Jewish trait, it don’t make a lick o’ sense! Maybe he could read and write the Ferengi language and not the human language? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2005, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-nitpick-how-could-the-ferengi-not-have-scientists/325860/34 "2005-10-12T21:54:53Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Maybe he could read and write the Ferengi language and not the human language? Like all races in the Star Trek 'verse, the native language of Ferengar is flawless American-style English. **Lisa Simpson** : You speak English! **Kodos** : No! We are speaking Rigelian! By an astonishing coincidence our two languages are exactly the same. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2005, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-nitpick-how-could-the-ferengi-not-have-scientists/325860/35 "2005-10-12T23:29:48Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > Well, originally, the Ferengi were supposed to be the primary opposition in TNG (The Next Generation). They certainly fit all the sterotypes certain Hollywood types like to hate. Their first two or three appearances made them look a little silly, but quite efficient. Their Marauders were fully equal to Federation craft, and they appreciated war as well as commerce. > > By DS9, however, all aliens worth more than one appearance were reduced to one-note jokes. The Klingons, once a mysterious and deep people, more concerned with galactic politics and workign to end the Federation, had become a race of space vikings who, for no known reason, charged into battle waving swords and still won. Bajorans were religious, etc. I’ll admit they did treat the Klingons and Ferengi as cardboard cut-outs for the most part but that was because they had their hands tied by TNG but you either didn’t watch much DS9 or just didn’t pay much attention if you think their characterization of Bajorans, Cardassians, and even secondary races like the Vorta and Jem’ Hadar was one-note. ---
**Author:** ![Balduran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cc9497/32.png) [@Balduran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balduran)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-nitpick-how-could-the-ferengi-not-have-scientists/325860/36 "2005-10-13T00:17:48Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > I’ll admit they did treat the Klingons and Ferengi as cardboard cut-outs for the most part but that was because they had their hands tied by TNG but you either didn’t watch much DS9 or just didn’t pay much attention if you think their characterization of Bajorans, Cardassians, and even secondary races like the Vorta and Jem’ Hadar was one-note. I’m going to pretend that the writers of this show were actually being clever and making the subtle point that, humans are still pretty ethnocentric and treat aliens as monolithic entities. But once you get to know them, like on DS9 you see it isn’t true. For example the “All Ferengi’s are space Yankee traders” stereotype was blown out once you got to know Quark, Rom, and Nog. Much like early Europeans probably thought all Native Americans or Africans were the same. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-nitpick-how-could-the-ferengi-not-have-scientists/325860/37 "2005-10-13T00:33:54Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > I could imagine the TOS-era Klingons having scientists, but not the current lobster-heads. I have a hard time imagining Worf and his bretheren being technologically savvy enough to invent the lightbulb. The first time we saw the inside of a Klingon starship, I half-expected to see the hallways lit with flaming torches. There’s also the fact that the Klingon Empire, a gigantic confederation of dozens of star systems with billions of citizens, is capitalled in a building whose main chamber is no larger than a meeting room in your local Holida Inn, and run by a small group of infighting twits who more closely resemble a bickering Shriners chapter than the government of a great state. How the Klingons could possibly run a huge star empire is inexplicable. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-nitpick-how-could-the-ferengi-not-have-scientists/325860/38 "2005-10-13T00:45:20Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > Let’s face it: Star Trek aliens are one-dimensional caricatures. Nuh uh! No they’re not! No way! You take that back! In other news, I’m really looking forward to kissing a girl. Can anyone here tell me what it’s like? Wait, who am I kidding? This is a Trek thread. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![brianjedi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@brianjedi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianjedi)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-nitpick-how-could-the-ferengi-not-have-scientists/325860/39 "2005-10-13T04:55:54Z")
> [@Larry Borgia](#): > > Like all races in the Star Trek 'verse, the native language of Ferengar is flawless American-style English. > > **Lisa Simpson** : You speak English! > > **Kodos** : No! We are speaking Rigelian! By an astonishing coincidence our two languages are exactly the same. Universal Translator. They’re all speaking their own language, but we hear it through the UT. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-nitpick-how-could-the-ferengi-not-have-scientists/325860/40 "2005-10-13T05:20:28Z")
> [@brianjedi](#): > > Universal Translator. They’re all speaking their own language, but we hear it through the UT. So how come their lips move in English? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-nitpick-how-could-the-ferengi-not-have-scientists/325860.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-nitpick-how-could-the-ferengi-not-have-scientists/325860.md?page=3)