# "Star Trek TNG" nitpick: How could the Ferengi not have scientists? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 12, 2005, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-nitpick-how-could-the-ferengi-not-have-scientists/325860 "2005-10-12T05:58:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-nitpick-how-could-the-ferengi-not-have-scientists/325860/61 "2005-10-13T18:51:19Z")
> [@Peter Morris](#): > > Yeah, it was Worf’s grandfather that defended Kirk & McCoy at their trial. Don’t you know he was shamed by that as a child? Klingon Kid #1 “My Grandfather slew fifteen at the battle of Kik’Yo’Ass with a stone!” KK#2 "My Grandfather skinned alive the Earther who asked my Grandmother, ‘Does your Mother know you’re out tonight, Lucille?’ " Worf: “My Grandsire was…a lawyer.” ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-nitpick-how-could-the-ferengi-not-have-scientists/325860/62 "2005-10-13T19:19:17Z")
> [@Larry Borgia](#): > > So how come their lips move in English? Because it’s not Babylon 5. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-nitpick-how-could-the-ferengi-not-have-scientists/325860/63 "2005-10-13T19:40:15Z")
Actually, in a rather subtle way (which I think is far subtler than the way most Star Trek writers thought about it), I think Star Trek kind of gets it right. A truly alien species WOULD seem all alike to us. Not because they WERE all alike, but because the axes and variables on which they varied would be ones that humans weren’t used to thinking about, and vice versa. It’s similar to how (as described in a classic SDMB column) westerners tend to think all Chinese people look alike. So we’d be saying to ourselves “those foobarians are all sarcastic and interested in painting”, because “sarcastic” would be the only human concept that even came CLOSE to describing their personality, and because to them, something-alien-but-kind-of-akin-to-painting was as natural as eating was to us. And vice versa. It would be extremely unlikely that we’d meet an alien race whose personalities and brains were so similar to ours that their natural variation of personality would be immediately recognizeable and familiar to us. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-nitpick-how-could-the-ferengi-not-have-scientists/325860/64 "2005-10-13T19:44:41Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Actually, in a rather subtle way (which I think is far subtler than the way **most** Star Trek writers thought about it), I think Star Trek kind of gets it right. Most? I would say **any**. Otherwise I agree with your post completely. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-nitpick-how-could-the-ferengi-not-have-scientists/325860/65 "2005-10-13T19:49:46Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > [fanwank]Except that the UT uses noise-cancelling technology to eliminate the spoken sounds, replacing them with English; while we’re here, why don’t we just say that, I dunno, it also uses a form of holography to superimpose the image of english-speaking lips on the face of the alien? Compared to all this, the Babel Fish is the elegantly simpler alternative. 🆒 > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Klingon Kid #1 “My Grandfather slew fifteen at the battle of Kik’Yo’Ass with a stone!” > KK#2 "My Grandfather skinned alive the Earther who asked my Grandmother, ‘Does your Mother know you’re out tonight, Lucille?’ " > Worf: “My Grandsire was…a lawyer.” KK#1: **gasp!** KK#2: “By the blood of Duros! You must be honored indeed!” Worf: “Yes. The Trial at Dan’Beth was a glorious one. The subpoenas flew faster than _da’harran_ blades, the cross-examinations ran deep with the bile of shame, and the closing arguments cut far deeper than mere flesh and bone.” KK#1: “The dishonoring of Tra’pahhh is still whispered in awe to this day!” KK#2: “You are such a fortunate one, Worf.” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-nitpick-how-could-the-ferengi-not-have-scientists/325860/66 "2005-10-13T22:23:27Z")
> [@](#): > > If they had made the aliens on Star Trek basically look like they’d been dubbed into English when they were on screen and have the ones who commonly dealt with the Federation speak English without a translator it’d sit better. On Babylon 5, they actually do this. Most of the aliens we see are already familiar with humans, many of them are actually diplomats, and English is the official language of the station, so most aliens we see speak English directly. But with some aliens (presumably those whose mouthparts are not suited to human speech), when they talk, there’s a low-volume background of alien sounds, with a loud-and-clear, artificial sounding, English narration on top of it. Presumably they wear translators which convert their native language (the alien sounds) to English, and they whisper their native speech so as not to confuse the listeners. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-nitpick-how-could-the-ferengi-not-have-scientists/325860/67 "2005-10-13T22:35:03Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Most? I would say **any**. Otherwise I agree with your post completely. I would have written that, but a very small percentage of trek episodes and books were actually written by (or based on writings by) highly respected SF authors. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-nitpick-how-could-the-ferengi-not-have-scientists/325860/68 "2005-10-13T23:07:04Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > On Babylon 5, they actually do this. Most of the aliens we see are already familiar with humans, many of them are actually diplomats, and English is the official language of the station, so most aliens we see speak English directly. But with some aliens (presumably those whose mouthparts are not suited to human speech), when they talk, there’s a low-volume background of alien sounds, with a loud-and-clear, artificial sounding, English narration on top of it. Presumably they wear translators which convert their native language (the alien sounds) to English, and they whisper their native speech so as not to confuse the listeners. Yes, but whenever we saw 2 or more humanoid aliens taking without any humans present Babylon 5 had the actors speak English even the characters were speaking Minbari or Centuari. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-nitpick-how-could-the-ferengi-not-have-scientists/325860/69 "2005-10-14T00:08:38Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > It would be extremely unlikely that we’d meet an alien race whose personalities and brains were so similar to ours that their natural variation of personality would be immediately recognizeable and familiar to us. Not with Hodgkin’s Law of Parallel Development, dude! 🙂 Remember the Original Series episode where they landed on a planet identical to Earth if the Roman Empire never fell? Kirk: “Hodgkin’s Law of Parallel Development . . . the language here is English!” (What ever happened to Latin?) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-nitpick-how-could-the-ferengi-not-have-scientists/325860/70 "2005-10-14T01:21:49Z")
> [@](#): > > Yes, but whenever we saw 2 or more humanoid aliens taking without any humans present Babylon 5 had the actors speak English even the characters were speaking Minbari or Centuari. Most of the time when we see two aliens talking, they’re of different species, and therefore using the official language of the station (likely the only language common to both). This could even apply to aliens of the same species conversing together: We know that there are many different Mimbari languages, and there might well be different Centauri or Narn lanuages as well. Further, most of the cases where we see two aliens of the same species conversing, it’s one of the ambassadors and his or her assistant. Being diplomats, fluency in the official language of the station would be important to them, so it’s plausible that they would speak it even among themselves, or even when alone, so as to stay in practice. It’s only when Delenn meets with the Grey Council, or when Londo phones Refa, that we need to postulate a translation for our benefit at all. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-nitpick-how-could-the-ferengi-not-have-scientists/325860/71 "2005-10-14T01:46:34Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > KK#2: “You are such a fortunate one, Worf.” I take it that you or a loved one is in the legal profession. 🙂 Read more _Pearls Before Swine._ ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-nitpick-how-could-the-ferengi-not-have-scientists/325860/72 "2005-10-14T01:48:51Z")
I’ve wondered if the members of the Enterprise bridge crew were all speaking their native languages. Was Picard speaking French, Riker speaking American, Geordi speaking whatever they speak in Kenya, Worf speaking Russian and the UT making them all understood? I’ve also wondered why the UT translates everything the alien says to Picard, but not what he says to the assistant sitting beside him. More than once, I’ve seen the Klingon on the main screen turn and speak in Klingon to his first officer or some other Klingon, and it doesn’t get translated, and then Picard will speak in Klingon to show that, “Hey, I understood that!” And if the Klingon has been hearing his own language spoken perfectly all along through the UT, how does he tell when Picard is suddenly speaking Klingon for real? Especially since the lips keep moving the same way? ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-nitpick-how-could-the-ferengi-not-have-scientists/325860/73 "2005-10-14T01:58:12Z")
Oh, and back to the OP (sorta). Somebody was asking about lobes, as in “He has the lobes for business.” “Lobes” is a variation on “balls”, of course, but it is indeed referring to earlobes, not brain lobes. We saw at least two Ferengi females on DS9, and both had drastically smaller earlobes than the males. Quark, and other male Ferengi, have frequently said that females don’t have the lobes for business. One of the females we saw used prosthetic ears to pass as a male so that she could engage in business. And of course, Grand Nagus Zek, the high muckety-muck of Ferengi business, had outlandishly large earlobes. It would not surprise me to learn that his ears were surgically altered to represent his business acumen. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-nitpick-how-could-the-ferengi-not-have-scientists/325860/74 "2005-10-14T02:27:41Z")
> [@Phase42](#): > > I’ve wondered if the members of the Enterprise bridge crew were all speaking their native languages. I think they were speaking Federation Basic in STNG and DS9. I don’t know if that’s canon or something from a novel. In TOS, I think they were speaking English w/o translators. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-nitpick-how-could-the-ferengi-not-have-scientists/325860/75 "2005-10-14T03:28:40Z")
> [@Phase42](#): > > I’ve wondered if the members of the Enterprise bridge crew were all speaking their native languages. Was Picard speaking French, Riker speaking American, Geordi speaking whatever they speak in Kenya, Worf speaking Russian and the UT making them all understood?.. If they were all speaking there native languages and it was being translated into English that would explain Frenchman Picard’s British accent (didn’t they film scenes with Stewart speaking with a French accent for the pilot?). Geordi was Jamaican (or at least his mother was). Having Worf speak Russian (ala his adopted parents) or speak with a Russian accent would be funny. I don’t remember anyone on TNG talking about “Basis”, but in VOY it was confirmed the default setting for Voyager’s computer was English. Also in “37s” the WWII Japanese soldier seemed convinced Japan won the war because the UT made it same as if everyone was speaking Japanese and there were alot of Asian around. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-nitpick-how-could-the-ferengi-not-have-scientists/325860/76 "2005-10-14T04:52:55Z")
> [@Phase42](#): > > I’ve wondered if the members of the Enterprise bridge crew were all speaking their native languages. Was Picard speaking French, Riker speaking American, Geordi speaking whatever they speak in Kenya, Worf speaking Russian and the UT making them all understood? Nog, at least, was about to enter Starfleet Academy without being able to speak English. (And judging by the rest of that episode, _Little Green Men,_ he couldn’t read or write english either, or he just didn’t think of it.) To make things worse, a much earlier episode showed him having trouble pronouncing “coup d’etat” during a conversation with Jake. AND countless other episodes have shown other heroes traveling back in time, and being perfectly capable of communicating with the natives without arousing any suspicion. Maybe the UTs are actually wired into everyone’s Central Nervous Systems, and it overrides one’s speech organs so you actually speak the different language, and you have to hit a “cough” button with your tongue when you don’t want to be translated. (No, I don’t believe that, either.) Bah. Suspension of disbelief is my bitch. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-nitpick-how-could-the-ferengi-not-have-scientists/325860/77 "2005-10-14T19:54:10Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I take it that you or a loved one is in the legal profession. 🙂 Nah, I just encourage a healthy dose of caution when dealing with lawyers. 😉 “It wasn’t until ten years ago that they replaced trial by ordeal here with trial by lawyer, and that was only because they found that lawyers were nastier.” –_The Fifth Elephant,_ Terry Pratchett > [@Phase42](#): > > “Lobes” is a variation on “balls”, of course, but it is indeed referring to earlobes, not brain lobes. We saw at least two Ferengi females on DS9, and both had drastically smaller earlobes than the males. IIRC, the Ferengi were portrayed with their earlobes as erogenous zones, so “lobes” == “balls” is closer than you thought… ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-nitpick-how-could-the-ferengi-not-have-scientists/325860/78 "2005-10-14T20:40:32Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Nah, I just encourage a healthy dose of caution when dealing with lawyers. 😉 Sound advice. > [@rjung](#): > > IIRC, the Ferengi were portrayed with their earlobes as erogenous zones, You are again correct, it’s just one of those things I tried not to think about. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-nitpick-how-could-the-ferengi-not-have-scientists/325860.md?page=3)