# Star Trek TNG question **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 23, 2004, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-question/276275 "2004-11-23T14:48:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-question/276275/1 "2004-11-23T14:48:07Z")
The episode \* Loud As A Whisper\*, features a mute alien diplomat who uses sign language. Is the language used in the episode a real Earth sign language, or did they make up an alien language for the episode? ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-question/276275/2 "2004-11-23T15:07:59Z")
Probably, but surprisingly difficult to verify. All I can find for sure is that Data mostly studied ASL … but I can’t find anything to prove that ASL is what he or Riva used. > [@](#): > > The hand gestures that Data studied on his computer screen when learning this language were mostly standard American Sign Language symbols. One sign that was not was the traditional Vulcan salute, which was included to see if anyone would notice. [http://www.powernet.net/~jcrafton/linguis.html](http://www.powernet.net/~jcrafton/linguis.html) There’s also this one-line statement, maybe true, maybe not: > [@](#): > > EXTRAS: The native language of Riva, a political figure from the planet Ramatis III: American Sign Language. [http://www.thingswalkingout.com/startrek/tng/2/whisper.html](http://www.thingswalkingout.com/startrek/tng/2/whisper.html) So, probably ASL, but not 100% certain. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-question/276275/3 "2004-11-23T15:14:56Z")
I learned a bit of sign language when I was a kid. IMO, what Data learned wasn’t quite ASL but was certainly derived from it. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-question/276275/4 "2004-11-23T15:48:54Z")
Seems like a lot of trouble to go to for the actor. As I recall the guy playing Riva really is deaf. Not saying it couldn’t be done…just that I would have blown past that during script development. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-question/276275/5 "2004-11-23T16:27:58Z")
There are, of course, sign languages other than ASL. Perhaps it was one of those? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-question/276275/6 "2004-11-23T16:54:03Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > There are, of course, sign languages other than ASL. Perhaps it was one of those? I understand French Sign Language uses the middle finger a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-question/276275/7 "2004-11-23T18:44:08Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > I understand French Sign Language uses the middle finger a lot. Either that or some kind of gesture with both hands held high above one’s head. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-question/276275/8 "2004-11-23T19:25:22Z")
> [@Jonathan Chance](#): > > Seems like a lot of trouble to go to for the actor. As I recall the guy playing Riva really is deaf. I remember reading discussions about this episode on rec.arts.startrek back when it came out. The language Riva was using was, indeed, ASL. The actor even made up a signing for Ramatis (the star system where Riva was acting as a mediator) consisting of the ASL sign for “R” circling around inside a hemisphere formed by his other hand. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-question/276275/9 "2004-11-23T19:26:25Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > I learned a bit of sign language when I was a kid. IMO, what Data learned wasn’t quite ASL but was certainly derived from it. … except for the happy young couple in love walking along the beach by the blue ocean at sunset, of course. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-question/276275/10 "2004-11-23T19:32:00Z")
My copy is boxed up and about 3,000 miles away so I can’t get to it right now but anyone with the _The Next Generation Companion_ at hand can probably tell you for sure as it’s an episode by episode guide to the series with all sorts of background information. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-question/276275/11 "2004-11-23T20:41:51Z")
Thanks for the info, folks. ---
**Author:** ![Atreyu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@Atreyu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atreyu)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-question/276275/12 "2004-11-23T23:49:35Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > My copy is boxed up and about 3,000 miles away so I can’t get to it right now but anyone with the _The Next Generation Companion_ at hand can probably tell you for sure as it’s an episode by episode guide to the series with all sorts of background information. Well, I’ve got my copy of that book right here. To avoid potential copyright violations, I’ll just paraphrase some of the key points. The actor playing Riva is Howie Seago. According to the book, he actually is deaf, and he was the one who proposed to the show’s producers the idea of an episode built around a deaf character. He was instrumental in changing the original premise of the episode, which initially proposed his character learning to speak literally overnight when a mechanical translater breaks down. The book doesn’t explicitly say whether or not the Riva character was using ASL in the show. I regret that I cannot offer a definitive answer myself. Even though I’m deaf, I know relatively little sign. The last time I saw the episode was many years ago, and I recall recognizing a few signs, but couldn’t determine for certain if everything was ASL or not. Being deaf since birth, I was fascinated by this episode when it first aired. It’s one of the few times I’ve ever seen a deaf character handled in a positive light on a TV show in the 1980s, and it’s the only example that leaps to mind of a deaf character existing in an advanced science-fiction universe. I’ve occasionally wondered whether or not Federation medicine would have been advanced enough to eliminate deafness, and hence eliminate the need for sign language. Seems advanced enough to handle damn near everything else. The episode here doesn’t seem to answer that question, since the character of Riva is apparently from a non-Federation world (corrections on that point welcomed, of course). The book describes Riva as a “Ramatisian mediator”, and I don’t know for certain whether that world is really a member of the Federation or not. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-question/276275/13 "2004-11-23T23:56:35Z")
Off-topic: You don’t sign, **Atreyu**? I assume you lip read but how do you communicate yourself if born deaf? Can you talk? I apologize if this comes off as insensitive but I’m just curious. Thanks for looking that up, by the way. I was hoping someone would when they read it. ---
**Author:** ![Atreyu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@Atreyu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atreyu)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2004, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-question/276275/14 "2004-11-24T00:28:39Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > Off-topic: You don’t sign, **Atreyu**? I assume you lip read but how do you communicate yourself if born deaf? Can you talk? I apologize if this comes off as insensitive but I’m just curious. No need to apologize. I don’t see your questions as insensitive at all. To avoid hijacking this thread any further, I’ll respond to your questions via the e-mail address listed in your profile. I hope that will be all right. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2004, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-question/276275/15 "2004-11-24T00:32:48Z")
Sure. It’s why I have it listed. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2004, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-question/276275/16 "2004-11-24T00:42:42Z")
> [@Atreyu](#): > > I’ve occasionally wondered whether or not Federation medicine would have been advanced enough to eliminate deafness, and hence eliminate the need for sign language. Seems advanced enough to handle damn near everything else. Except male pattern baldness. ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2004, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-question/276275/17 "2004-11-24T00:45:01Z")
IIRC, Data learned several different sign languages from the Enterpise’s computers. Maybe it could have contained elements of all, or sign languages were amalgamated somehow later on in Earth’s history 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2004, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-question/276275/18 "2004-11-24T00:48:37Z")
> [@tracer](#): > > Except male pattern baldness. Taking your post seriously, I remember reading a plausible explanation for pudginess, baldness, and other defects in the Trek universe – gravitas. Picard looks very distinctive and commanding with his bald pate and many of the overweight admirals look more foreboding with a little bit of girth around their waists. It’s a conscious choice on their part to keep these “flaws” and could gain the hair back or lose the weight if they wanted to. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2004, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-question/276275/19 "2004-11-24T01:18:17Z")
> [@tracer](#): > > Except male pattern baldness. Or blindness. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2004, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-question/276275/20 "2004-11-24T01:25:17Z")
Geordi? Or was I just whooshed? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-question/276275.md?page=2)