# Star Trek TNG: "The Enemy: Do you order Worf to save the Romulan? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 9, 2015, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-the-enemy-do-you-order-worf-to-save-the-romulan/739960 "2015-12-09T16:28:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-the-enemy-do-you-order-worf-to-save-the-romulan/739960/21 "2015-12-10T05:08:47Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > Agreed. Worf stood on Klingon “honor” by refusing to donate; but, being a good Federation Officer, gave his Captain an honorable “out” by letting Picard know that he _would_ donate, if so ordered. If Worf _never_ intended to donate, he could have simply kept his mouth shut and let Picard assume that he (Worf) would _never_ donate, under any circumstances. > > So, Picard should have given the order; Worf’s honor would be satisfied, as he was obeying a direct order from his commanding officer, and the Romulan would still be alive (if he could be similarly encouraged to take the medicine). I see it the other way around. Worf satisfied discipline by making it clear that he would follow orders, but he knew that Federation and Starfleet morality would not permit Picard to give such an order. See also “Ethics,” where Picard respects Worf’s decision to commit suicide, and declines to order him otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Garula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ea666f/32.png) [@Garula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garula)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-the-enemy-do-you-order-worf-to-save-the-romulan/739960/22 "2015-12-10T05:28:51Z")
I’m largely on board with **Chronos** ’ approach here. Federation officers are regularly called upon to make much greater sacrifices for much lesser causes. If it’s for the greater good, the Federation is quite willing to send its people on suicide missions. I don’t see a compelling reason why protecting this sort of bodily integrity is so fundamentally different. Now, if it were a much more invasive procedure, like maybe Worf needs to donate a chunk of his brain which will leave him with permanent mental damage, then that might be a line I’m not willing to cross. It’s pretty much moot without the Romulan’s consent, though. If someone of sound mind outside of my authority outright refuses my help then I would respect that decision. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-the-enemy-do-you-order-worf-to-save-the-romulan/739960/23 "2015-12-10T12:10:59Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > … the Romulan – who, incidentally, is just as racist as Worf and has declared that he’d rather die than owe his life to a Klingon. > > Do you order Worf to donate the tissue sample? Not an issue. The Romulan is an intelligent adult, and has the legal right to refuse the donation. Since he has declined I have no right to force him. No transfusion will occur, even if Worf is willing. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-the-enemy-do-you-order-worf-to-save-the-romulan/739960/24 "2015-12-10T12:36:59Z")
> [@Arkcon](#): > > Dematerialize him into the transporter pattern buffer, and keep him preserved until rendez-vous. Spock did it with coffee in an early novel, and Scotty did it to himself. Seems like a typical medical procedure to have handy… But only works 50% of the time. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-the-enemy-do-you-order-worf-to-save-the-romulan/739960/25 "2015-12-10T12:42:02Z")
I’d order the medical officer to use the highly advanced medical technology that a civilization which has FTL and matter transmission WOULD have in any logical setting to save the damn Romulan. Because nothing about Trek biotechnology makes any sense at all. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-the-enemy-do-you-order-worf-to-save-the-romulan/739960/26 "2015-12-10T14:20:24Z")
So, the Captain can order a crewman to their death to save the ship (like in Troi’s test), but can’t order a (harmless to the donor) tissue donation? ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-the-enemy-do-you-order-worf-to-save-the-romulan/739960/27 "2015-12-10T14:28:53Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > So, the Captain can order a crewman to their death to save the ship (like in Troi’s test), but can’t order a (harmless to the donor) tissue donation? Yes. The current military is the same way. You can be ordered to storm the beach in which there is 99% certainty you’ll die, but you can’t be ordered to donate blood. Makes sense to me. it’s a question of personal liberty. And I wouldn’t order Worf, even if the Romulan wanted it. Even if the Romulan High Command personally demanded it. The line is drawn HERE. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-the-enemy-do-you-order-worf-to-save-the-romulan/739960/28 "2015-12-10T14:51:40Z")
“Mr. Worf, do it and stop bothering me with your talk of honor. I have more important things to concern me than your honor.” ---
**Author:** ![Gothic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Gothic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gothic)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-the-enemy-do-you-order-worf-to-save-the-romulan/739960/29 "2015-12-10T15:03:00Z")
No, I would never give that order. I can order a crew member to sacrifice themselves to save the ship, but ordering Woof to do this crosses the line. What’s next, scrapping Data so we have a chance to make more? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-the-enemy-do-you-order-worf-to-save-the-romulan/739960/30 "2015-12-10T15:38:23Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Yes. > > The current military is the same way. You can be ordered to storm the beach in which there is 99% certainty you’ll die, but you can’t be ordered to donate blood. > > Makes sense to me. it’s a question of personal liberty. And I wouldn’t order Worf, even if the Romulan wanted it. Even if the Romulan High Command personally demanded it. The line is drawn HERE. Exactly. You sign up with the idea that your life may be put on the line. You’ve effectively already agreed with that. Though, in the future, I would not be surprised if Picard could have ordered it. Captains seem to have a lot of leeway. They violate what is supposedly the prime rule all the time. It seems that Starfleet depends heavily on the morality of its participants. It seems that all they have to do is justify it. Saving a Romulan’s life to avoid an interstellar incident seems like it would fit. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Bredin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@John\_Bredin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Bredin)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-the-enemy-do-you-order-worf-to-save-the-romulan/739960/31 "2015-12-10T17:51:24Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > the Romulan – who, incidentally, is just as racist as Worf and has declared that he’d rather die than owe his life to a Klingon. Without addressing the first half of the dilemna (whether Worf donates), the latter half (whether the Romulan accepts the donation) sounds like the episode of MASH (or M_A_S_H_ if you prefer) where a racist soldier about to receive a blood transfusion says he doesn’t want it if it contains black blood. Dr. Pierce not only gives the transfusion – racist preferences be damned – he paints the racist brown with iodine as he sleeps as a prank/lesson. Which raises the question of how a Romulan would look with temporary Klingon forehead ridges? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-the-enemy-do-you-order-worf-to-save-the-romulan/739960/32 "2015-12-11T20:21:37Z")
I would sit down and talk it through with Worf and try to persuade him that it would be in keeping with the highest ideals of the Federation for him to voluntarily donate, but at the end of the day I would probably order him if it made a difference between the Romulan prisoner dying or not. As noted above, the needs of the many yada yada yada. ---
**Author:** ![turtlescanfly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/65b543/32.png) [@turtlescanfly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/turtlescanfly)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-the-enemy-do-you-order-worf-to-save-the-romulan/739960/33 "2015-12-11T21:09:33Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Saw this ep w/in the last month or so (just about finishing up S4). > > Yeah, I thought he should have ordered the donation. I think Worf even said he’d comply if ordered. > > I forget the outcome - how was it resolved? Can’t quote exactly, but I recall that after Worf informed the captain of his objections, but stated that he would do so if ordered, Picard stood up sharply saying “Mr. Worf”. Worf snapped to attention, and it seemed as if Picard was going to order him to save the Romulan, but instead he simply says “Dismissed”. He then contacts Dr. Crusher to tell her to make no further attempts to persuade Worf to undergo the procedure, and she at that point tells him the Romulan has died, rendering the whole point moot. ---
**Author:** ![turtlescanfly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/65b543/32.png) [@turtlescanfly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/turtlescanfly)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-the-enemy-do-you-order-worf-to-save-the-romulan/739960/34 "2015-12-11T21:11:17Z")
Also, I am surprised to see that I appear to be in the minority when I say that I would have respected the rights and wishes of my crew member. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-the-enemy-do-you-order-worf-to-save-the-romulan/739960/35 "2015-12-11T21:38:13Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > But only works 50% of the time. Depends on how long the pattern is stored in the buffer, doesn’t it? Scotty and the other officer had been in theirs for, what, 75 years? Only logical that at least _one_ of them wouldn’t have survived. The first time this procedure was mentioned, BTW, was in _ **TOS** _’s “Day of the Dove”: Chekov wanted to leave Kang and his crew in the transporter, rather than have them rematerialized on board the _Enterprise_. He referred to it as “nonexistence.” ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-the-enemy-do-you-order-worf-to-save-the-romulan/739960/36 "2015-12-11T21:57:40Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Depends on how long the pattern is stored in the buffer, doesn’t it? Scotty and the other officer had been in theirs for, what, 75 years? Only logical that at least _one_ of them wouldn’t have survived. > > The first time this procedure was mentioned, BTW, was in _ **TOS** _’s “Day of the Dove”: Chekov wanted to leave Kang and his crew in the transporter, rather than have them rematerialized on board the _Enterprise_. He referred to it as “nonexistence.” From the way Chekov was talking, and given the rest of the events of the episode, I’m pretty sure he was talking about killing Kang & Co. in the most expedient fashion. Pavel was the first of the Enterprise officers to succumb to the hate-thing’s influence. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-the-enemy-do-you-order-worf-to-save-the-romulan/739960/37 "2015-12-11T23:21:19Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > From the way Chekov was talking, and given the rest of the events of the episode, I’m pretty sure he was talking about killing Kang & Co. in the most expedient fashion. Pavel was the first of the Enterprise officers to succumb to the hate-thing’s influence. Given that I doubt he intended to materialize them anytime in the near-to-distant future, I’d have to agree with you there. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-the-enemy-do-you-order-worf-to-save-the-romulan/739960/38 "2015-12-12T06:35:46Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Depends on how long the pattern is stored in the buffer, doesn’t it? Scotty and the other officer had been in theirs for, what, 75 years? Only logical that at least _one_ of them wouldn’t have survived. > > The first time this procedure was mentioned, BTW, was in _ **TOS** _’s “Day of the Dove”: Chekov wanted to leave Kang and his crew in the transporter, rather than have them rematerialized on board the _Enterprise_. He referred to it as “nonexistence.” I’d like to see the technological safeguard disaster that occured between now and TOS that had them say “EFF safety protocols and permissions” Hyposprays ALONE should be locked up tight. The armory just opens for anyone apparently! But Engineering can be locked up by one drunk Navigator! And really…an overload setting for phasers? Those things look like they’d make terrible grenades. Get your priorities straight Starfleet! ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-the-enemy-do-you-order-worf-to-save-the-romulan/739960/39 "2015-12-12T16:24:24Z")
I like to imagine how this episode would have gone down if Worf had refused to donate to some black guy, or woman, or gay guy for “insert Klingon reasoning here”. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-the-enemy-do-you-order-worf-to-save-the-romulan/739960/40 "2015-12-12T18:27:49Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > …And really…an overload setting for phasers? Those things look like they’d make terrible grenades. > > Get your priorities straight Starfleet! On the other hand, they had an emergency-disposal chute not far from the Captain’s quarters that led all the way outside the hull. How often does _that_ come in handy? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-the-enemy-do-you-order-worf-to-save-the-romulan/739960.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-the-enemy-do-you-order-worf-to-save-the-romulan/739960.md?page=3)