# STAR TREK TOS: Does anybody believe that Starfleet actually had an order authorizing genocide? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 27, 2016, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tos-does-anybody-believe-that-starfleet-actually-had-an-order-authorizing-genocide/744409 "2016-01-27T20:43:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tos-does-anybody-believe-that-starfleet-actually-had-an-order-authorizing-genocide/744409/41 "2016-01-29T01:24:45Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > You’re misremembering the plot of AToA. Previous crews appear in B and C and also Return of the Archons. I dont think there is one in AToA IIRC, when the _Enterprise_ is zapped in orbit, one of the officials says something like “There, it’s happened again, just like it did \_\_\_\_\_\_\_ years ago.” Wasn’t part of Kirk’s mission in AToA to investigate the disappearance of an earlier starship? ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tos-does-anybody-believe-that-starfleet-actually-had-an-order-authorizing-genocide/744409/42 "2016-01-29T01:27:43Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Yeah, what are you? Gay? This does not compute. Engaging in snu-snu makes you gay? :dubious: 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tos-does-anybody-believe-that-starfleet-actually-had-an-order-authorizing-genocide/744409/43 "2016-01-29T01:40:27Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I have bolded the parts that I think are relevant. Not only was Garth an inmate in an insane asylum, but it was the very fact that he destroyed a planet (against his crews wishes) that got him there in the first place. Point of order: The dialogue refers to Garth _trying_ to destroy Antos Four (the implication being that he gave the order, his crew quite understandably refused to obey, and he would up in an asylum since he was clearly a few squares short of a 3D chessboard). Either way, it doesn’t really help with the question of whether there is some official numerical code for “slag the planet”. ---
**Author:** ![4d3fect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/4d3fect/32/9728_2.png) [@4d3fect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/4d3fect)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tos-does-anybody-believe-that-starfleet-actually-had-an-order-authorizing-genocide/744409/44 "2016-01-29T01:43:30Z")
This thread caught my eye, if only because I just finished watching Galaxy Quest… ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tos-does-anybody-believe-that-starfleet-actually-had-an-order-authorizing-genocide/744409/45 "2016-01-29T01:50:17Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > IIRC, when the _Enterprise_ is zapped in orbit, one of the officials says something like “There, it’s happened again, just like it did \_\_\_\_\_\_\_ years ago.” Wasn’t part of Kirk’s mission in AToA to investigate the disappearance of an earlier starship? That does ring true ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tos-does-anybody-believe-that-starfleet-actually-had-an-order-authorizing-genocide/744409/46 "2016-01-29T02:06:03Z")
> [@G0sp3l](#): > > Watching _Into Darkness_ last night, kept thinking “Nichelle was SOOO much hotter than Zoe” Yeah, she just screamed class in that role, and that made her extra sexy. Zoe… well… her sleeves were shorter…:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tos-does-anybody-believe-that-starfleet-actually-had-an-order-authorizing-genocide/744409/47 "2016-01-29T02:18:35Z")
Zoe does get a gratuituous strip scene in the reboot movie, and whenever that happens it is A Good Thing. So there’s that > [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > That does ring true Looking up the script: > [@](#): > > [Bridge] > > SPOCK: We know very little about them. Their civilisation is advanced. They’ve had space flight for several centuries, but they’ve never ventured beyond their own solar system. When first contacted more than fifty years ago, Eminiar Seven was at war with its nearest neighbour. > KIRK: Anything else? > SPOCK: The Earth expedition making the report failed to return from its mission. The USS Valiant. Listed as missing in space. > [@](#): > > [War Room] > > SAR: Look, Anan. (another flare on another screen) > ANAN: Yes, I see it. They were warned. > SAR: Just as it happened fifty years ago. > ANAN: Alert a security detachment. They may be needed. So an earlier-generation exploration vessel was lost to the Eminiar-Vendikar war – probably upon not noticing any active hostilities lowered their shields and were fired upon in the same way Anan tried against Enterprise. (Memory Alpha indicates that there were a lot of continuity snags with the ID of that USS Valiant in the offscreen written materials) ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tos-does-anybody-believe-that-starfleet-actually-had-an-order-authorizing-genocide/744409/48 "2016-01-29T04:27:36Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Which brings me to the thread question: Was General Order 24 a for-real deal, or just a bluff? I would say bluff. ROE saying return fire if fired upon I could get behind. But no captain is worth glassing a planet for, its kinda the reason they are not supposed to go on away missions. As well, it does not make sense for an exporation vessel to have canned operations orders of that magnitude, without due consultations with higher. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tos-does-anybody-believe-that-starfleet-actually-had-an-order-authorizing-genocide/744409/49 "2016-01-29T04:42:43Z")
> [@bup](#): > > Were that episode written and produced today, it would have been a bluff, or would have been a clear violation of Starfleet orders that Scotty was prepared to pay the price (die) for. > > But it was the 60’s, man. We didn’t think so much of destroying an entire planet. Shit happens. The general order was real, and didn’t require any pansy-ass OK from HQ. > > I’d bet my paycheck there are captains of submarines (that sounds wrong. I know a sub could have a commander as top officer, but I also bet the 18 Ohio-class subs all have captains[sup]1[/sup]) out there now with authority to launch their nukes on their own initiative if they are, for one reason or another, out of communication with higher authority. That’s not a planet, or even a country (unless we go to war with Monaco), but it is millions of people. Once you’re a space-faring species, “planet” doesn’t seem as big a thing as it used to. But the whole point of TOS was that Cold War Earth was primitive and brutal, and that the Federation was better than that. In any case, a show filmed just a few years after Dr. Strangelove came out was well aware of the dangers of wacko commanders. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tos-does-anybody-believe-that-starfleet-actually-had-an-order-authorizing-genocide/744409/50 "2016-01-29T04:46:20Z")
> [@4d3fect](#): > > This thread caught my eye, if only because I just finished watching Galaxy Quest… Hey, me too! Maybe I should put some pants on… ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tos-does-anybody-believe-that-starfleet-actually-had-an-order-authorizing-genocide/744409/51 "2016-01-29T08:35:13Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I don’t know if I’d put it quite that way. > [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > What other way is there? > > Death by snu-snu? > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Yeah, what are you? Gay? Well, the Sarge did die _in flagrante_, but I wouldn’t say that Grace killed him. I mean, how much was the man’s poor heart supposed to take? The candle that burns twice as bright, etc. I remember a scene from the episode after he died where Renko asks Capt. Furillo if it’s true how he died; it expressed a certain tragic reverence. I can’t find the scene or quote online, though. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tos-does-anybody-believe-that-starfleet-actually-had-an-order-authorizing-genocide/744409/52 "2016-01-29T11:15:14Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I remember a scene from the episode after he died where Renko asks Capt. Furillo if it’s true how he died; it expressed a certain tragic reverence. I can’t find the scene or quote online, though. To the best of my recollection: **[Phone rings at Joyce Davenport’s just as she and Frank are getting ready for bed. Renko’s at the other end, in a bar, half bombed.]** **FURILLO:** [_Wearily_] Yes, Andy, what can I do for you? **RENKO:** Well, a bunch of us were just talkin’ about the Sarge, and we were wonderin’ … is it true what they’re sayin’ about how he died? **FURILLO:** [_Matter-of-factly_] Yes, Andy, it’s true. **RENKO:** [_Delighted_] How 'bout that! Thank you, Captain! **FURILLO:** Good night, Andy. [_Hangs up._] **JOYCE:** … And a legend is born! ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tos-does-anybody-believe-that-starfleet-actually-had-an-order-authorizing-genocide/744409/53 "2016-01-29T13:44:34Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > You’re misremembering the plot of AToA. Previous crews appear in B and C and also Return of the Archons. I dont think there is one in AToA [The Wiki entry mentions one](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Taste_of_Armageddon#Plot), though confusingly it’s the oft-used _USS Valiant_. > [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > She was saving herself for [Sgt. Esterhaus](https://40.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lt6bzlzyWY1r4swg0o1_1280.jpg). [Barbara Babcock](http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Barbara_Babcock) made several appearances in TOS, on screen, and off as voice-over characters including Trelane’s mother, the Tholian Capt, Gary Seven’s computer & cat (just the purring, not its human form) etc. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tos-does-anybody-believe-that-starfleet-actually-had-an-order-authorizing-genocide/744409/54 "2016-01-29T15:45:59Z")
Not only is it real but sisko actually carried it out in “For the Uniform” where the maquee led by traitorous officer Michael Eddington started using biogenic weapons against cardassian worlds to prevent cardassians from living there. Sisko responded by making a maquee world uninhabitable to humans. He said that their actions made the maquee an “intolerable threat to the federation” Which I assume is part of the language of general order 24. They never make any reference to siskos actions even being questioned by Starfleet. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tos-does-anybody-believe-that-starfleet-actually-had-an-order-authorizing-genocide/744409/55 "2016-01-29T16:24:43Z")
Here’s the planet in question: [Solosos III | Memory Alpha | Fandom](http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Solosos_III) ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tos-does-anybody-believe-that-starfleet-actually-had-an-order-authorizing-genocide/744409/56 "2016-01-29T16:28:48Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > **[Phone rings at Joyce Davenport’s just as she and Frank are getting ready for bed. Renko’s at the other end, in a bar, half bombed.]** > > **FURILLO:** [_Wearily_] Yes, Andy, what can I do for you? > > **RENKO:** Well, a bunch of us were just talkin’ about the Sarge, and we were wonderin’ … is it true what they’re sayin’ about how he died? > > **FURILLO:** [_Matter-of-factly_] Yes, Andy, it’s true. > > **RENKO:** [_Delighted_] How 'bout that! Thank you, Captain! > > **FURILLO:** Good night, Andy. [_Hangs up._] > > **JOYCE:** … And a legend is born! Yeah, I remember that part of it, but I would have sworn that Renko also said something (either before or after the conversation with the Captain) admiring of the Sargeant’s prowess in the sack; that’s the bit I was trying to find. > [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > [Barbara Babcock](http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Barbara_Babcock) made several appearances in TOS, on screen, and off as voice-over characters including Trelane’s mother, the Tholian Capt, Gary Seven’s computer & cat (just the purring, not its human form) etc. A legend in her own right. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tos-does-anybody-believe-that-starfleet-actually-had-an-order-authorizing-genocide/744409/57 "2016-01-29T16:52:47Z")
Just watched the episode again and at the end he even tells dax he didn’t bother clearing the plan with star fleet. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tos-does-anybody-believe-that-starfleet-actually-had-an-order-authorizing-genocide/744409/58 "2016-01-29T16:53:59Z")
NM. ---
**Author:** ![4d3fect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/4d3fect/32/9728_2.png) [@4d3fect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/4d3fect)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tos-does-anybody-believe-that-starfleet-actually-had-an-order-authorizing-genocide/744409/59 "2016-01-29T18:06:28Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Hey, me too! > > Maybe I should put some pants on… Nah, termites don’t care about your pants. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tos-does-anybody-believe-that-starfleet-actually-had-an-order-authorizing-genocide/744409/60 "2016-01-29T18:10:24Z")
I vote its real but with a third option. Entertainment reflects the times it was created and this was the 60’s, still in the midst of the Cold War. Something like this was less crazy when you have drills for schoolkids that hiding from nuclear fallout is a real thing. But I have to believe that if we were to talk to anyone of authority for the franchise, they’d probably claim that its been retconned and it was a bluff all along. The Star Trek we know now, mostly influenced by TNG and the 90’s, are too positive to include such a thing. In universe and in real life, it is probably a remnant of a more paranoid time. I would be shocked if TNG-era Trek had such an order [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tos-does-anybody-believe-that-starfleet-actually-had-an-order-authorizing-genocide/744409.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tos-does-anybody-believe-that-starfleet-actually-had-an-order-authorizing-genocide/744409.md?page=4)