# Star Trek TOS: Vulcans = traitors? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 7, 2011, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tos-vulcans-traitors/598922 "2011-10-07T19:07:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2011, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tos-vulcans-traitors/598922/41 "2011-10-09T01:00:31Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Except that he leads off with “half-breed”, which _is_ directed at Spock personally. And which ties in with the circus freak business. Take your facts back to Wales where they belong. 😉 What’s always bothered me in a purely practical sense (it makes perfect sense dramatically) is why Kirk choose Spock to piss off rather than Scott, who also had excellent technical skills and whom he had a much better chance of surviving a fistfight with. Obviously he knew this was going to end in violence, and using a phaser is clearly contraindicated. I think he already knows at that point that Spock will simply shrug off most of his punches, whereas a careless backhand from the Vulcan is going to send him flying across the room. The look on his face when Spock simply crushes the metal rod he’d planned to use as an equalizer was always amusing. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2011, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tos-vulcans-traitors/598922/42 "2011-10-09T05:39:55Z")
Spock was mixed heritage. Earth Woman and Vulcan Father. Yes it was a bit crude to call him half-breed, but it was typical writing in the 1960’s. Westerns often used the same insulting phrase for Indians with a white parent. It was a powerful insult and Kirk must of known that Spock was somewhat of an outsider on Vulcan. I bet even Vulcan children can be cruel about something like that. > [@Chronos](#): > > Except that he leads off with “half-breed”, which _is_ directed at Spock personally. And which ties in with the circus freak business. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tos-vulcans-traitors/598922/43 "2011-10-10T01:13:15Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > It was both reasons. Sarek thought Spock had more potential and he objected to Star Fleets military function. > > I’ve been trying to recall in TOS if Spock ever killed anyone. He phasered a bunch of folks, but it was on stun. Been too long since I watched to say for sure. I just watched “Friday’s Child”. Spock shoots a Capellan in the belly with a home made bow and arrow. The guy pitches forward off a short rock face, and I presume, since Capellans don’t care for the sick and wounded as much, he may very well have died from his wound. Of course, it’s also an example of an “obscure death”. ---
**Author:** ![Namkcalb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c89c15/32.png) [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tos-vulcans-traitors/598922/44 "2011-10-10T11:02:26Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Spock was mixed heritage. Earth Woman and Vulcan Father. Some writer must have slept through Biology class ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tos-vulcans-traitors/598922/45 "2011-10-10T11:21:15Z")
> [@Namkcalb](#): > > Some writer must have slept through Biology class _adjusts coke-bottle glasses_ Actually, in the Next Generation episode “The Chase”, it is revealed that many, if not all, of the humanoid races in the galaxy share common ancestry, due to a precursor race seeding the galaxy with their genetic material when they realized they were going to die out. This explicitly includes the Humans, Klingons, Romulans, and Cardassians. So yeah, evidently Humans and Vulcans are at least close enough to make it work. We also see Human/Klingon, Human/Romulan, Klingon/Romulan, and Cardassian/Bajoran mixes. If you think Vulcan/Human is a mixture for racial tension, just wait till DS9 brings up the Cardassian/Bajoran mix (particularly given who her father was…) ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tos-vulcans-traitors/598922/46 "2011-10-10T11:44:17Z")
It’s been stated in a few novels that Spock was conceived in a test tube, with natural conception being impossible between different races. Non-canon, of course, but widely accepted, and somewhat more plausible. ---
**Author:** ![Namkcalb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c89c15/32.png) [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tos-vulcans-traitors/598922/47 "2011-10-10T13:12:07Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > So yeah, evidently Humans and Vulcans are at least close enough to make it work. We also see Human/Klingon, Human/Romulan, Klingon/Romulan, and Cardassian/Bajoran mixes. > > If you think Vulcan/Human is a mixture for racial tension, just wait till DS9 brings up the Cardassian/Bajoran mix (particularly given who her father was…) Thanks for the explanation… I haven’t seen DS9 in 10 years, but I can guess that the father was Gul Dukat… it seems that guy pops up everywhere. He’s like a one man occupation force ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tos-vulcans-traitors/598922/48 "2011-10-10T13:17:50Z")
> [@Namkcalb](#): > > Thanks for the explanation… > I haven’t seen DS9 in 10 years, but I can guess that the father was Gul Dukat… it seems that guy pops up everywhere. He’s like a one man occupation force Yep, caused some drama at one point, when he was stunned to discover, in the same episode, that his daughter would not necessarily side with the Cardassians (and him), and that his fellow Cardassians would not necessarily see her as one of their own. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tos-vulcans-traitors/598922/49 "2011-10-10T16:10:35Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > _adjusts coke-bottle glasses_ > > Actually, in the Next Generation episode “The Chase”, it is revealed that many, if not all, of the humanoid races in the galaxy share common ancestry, due to a precursor race seeding the galaxy with their genetic material when they realized they were going to die out. This explicitly includes the Humans, Klingons, Romulans, and Cardassians. > > So yeah, evidently Humans and Vulcans are at least close enough to make it work. We also see Human/Klingon, Human/Romulan, Klingon/Romulan, and Cardassian/Bajoran mixes. > > If you think Vulcan/Human is a mixture for racial tension, just wait till DS9 brings up the Cardassian/Bajoran mix (particularly given who her father was…) This just shows that ST writers really don’t understand biology. We’re clearly more closely related to lemurs than we are to Vulcans, but mating (eww) with them wouldn’t produce much. Spock started as half human half Martian until Gene got a clue. i always assumed that Spock was the result of some heavy duty genetic engineering made possible by advanced science and a father with lots of green Vulcan bills. But by the time of TOS there must have been a home breed with aliens kit, since they went wild. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tos-vulcans-traitors/598922/50 "2011-10-10T17:00:09Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > This just shows that ST writers really don’t understand biology. We’re clearly more closely related to lemurs than we are to Vulcans, but mating (eww) with them wouldn’t produce much. The Star Trek universe has different physical laws than ours, as phasers, subspace radio, and warp drive make clear. As I’ve written before, what McCoy and Spock would call “evolution” is what we call “intelligent design,” and it’s the correct theory of the origin of species. Humans, Vulcans/Romulans, Klingons, Cardassians, Bajorans, Trill, and all the other oxygen-breathing, sapient bipeds are canonically engineered to resemble one another in significant ways, and probably to be inter-fertile. Admittedly, in some cases it’s easier than others. Cardassians and Bajorans can interbreed without technological intervention; Klingons and Trill cannot. And I think it’s implied that Humans and Vulcans need a bit of gene-engineering as well. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tos-vulcans-traitors/598922/51 "2011-10-10T19:59:17Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > The Star Trek universe has different physical laws than ours, as phasers, subspace radio, and warp drive make clear. As I’ve written before, what McCoy and Spock would call “evolution” is what we call “intelligent design,” and it’s the correct theory of the origin of species. I assume you have the plans for a warp core, and have built one and determined it doesn’t work. Impulse engines, which can accelerate the ship to near light speed with no significant energy cost is a lot less feasible. I’m also not aware that the precursor race fiddled during our evolution, the way they’d have to to keep us inter-fertile. BTW, when ST came on in 1966 I was thrilled that they actually knew you couldn’t go faster than light by hitting the accelerator harder. That was very advanced for TV at the time. They also got the day of the week of Apollo XI correct (Tomorrow is Yesterday) so it has to be in our universe. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tos-vulcans-traitors/598922/52 "2011-10-10T20:44:01Z")
> [@](#): > > This just shows that ST writers really don’t understand biology. We’re clearly more closely related to lemurs than we are to Vulcans, but mating (eww) with them wouldn’t produce much. I like the way that Niven put it: “L. L. would have better luck attempting to mate with an ear of corn than with Superman”. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tos-vulcans-traitors/598922/53 "2011-10-10T21:08:13Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I assume you have the plans for a warp core, and have built one and determined it doesn’t work. Impulse engines, which can accelerate the ship to near light speed with no significant energy cost is a lot less feasible. I’m also not aware that the precursor race fiddled during our evolution, the way they’d have to to keep us inter-fertile. > > BTW, when ST came on in 1966 I was thrilled that they actually knew you couldn’t go faster than light by hitting the accelerator harder. That was very advanced for TV at the time. They also got the day of the week of Apollo XI correct (Tomorrow is Yesterday) so it has to be in our universe. Hey, remember the Eugenics Wars from the late 90s? Me either. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tos-vulcans-traitors/598922/54 "2011-10-10T21:19:37Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Hey, remember the Eugenics Wars from the late 90s? > > Me either. While they’re a matter of historical record centuries later, events quietly handled by Gary Seven haven’t yet been generally revealed. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tos-vulcans-traitors/598922/55 "2011-10-10T21:23:42Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > While they’re a matter of historical record centuries later, events quietly handled by Gary Seven haven’t yet been generally revealed. Am I allowed to say _special pleading_ outside of Great Debates? 😉 I still say the laws of physics are clearly different in the TrekVerse. The fact that phasers can disintegrate a human being without anything around the victim catching on fire shows that. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tos-vulcans-traitors/598922/56 "2011-10-10T23:31:39Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I like the way that Niven put it: “L. L. would have better luck attempting to mate with an ear of corn than with Superman”. There’s a filk song on the topic [http://www.songworm.com/lyrics/songworm-parody/MutantGenerations.html](http://www.songworm.com/lyrics/songworm-parody/MutantGenerations.html) Brief quote: “We’re closer to a radish than a Romulan, An unrelated creature of a foreign sun. How can a Klingon/human couple mate? She’s closer to the gak that squirms upon her plate.” ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tos-vulcans-traitors/598922/57 "2011-10-11T03:16:01Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Hey, remember the Eugenics Wars from the late 90s? > > Me either. Cover up. Big cover up. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tos-vulcans-traitors/598922/58 "2011-10-11T15:55:59Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > While they’re a matter of historical record centuries later, events quietly handled by Gary Seven haven’t yet been generally revealed. The intro notes on the rulebook for the table top tactical game “Star Fleet Battles” used to come with a blurb about how (somehow) a radio signal from space was detected, saved, and slowly being decoded. It appears to have been a radio signal from the future, a routine data download (maybe by some high school student) of “historical” info. Thus, the material presented within the SFB rulebook was the history of the future. (Or was that the future of history?) Anywho, as with the 2009 film reboot, we now realise that there are mulitple Star Trek universe possibilities. * * * On another “traitor” note, I watched “The Deadly Years” last night. Spock convenes a compentancy hearing, as requested by Commodore Stocker and SF regulations, the idea being that Kirk was unfit for command. After being informed by Spock as to the results of the hearing, once again Kirk calls Spock a traitor. I guess Kirk had a very rigid sense of loyalty. He knew the regulations as well as anyone else aboard, but he still gets emotional about it. ---
**Author:** ![cjepson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a9adbd/32.png) [@cjepson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cjepson)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tos-vulcans-traitors/598922/59 "2011-10-11T16:34:53Z")
My theory regarding the original question of the thread is that Kirk was referring to some presumably well-known but unspecified historical incident in which the Vulcans decided that the logical thing to do was to turn on some former ally. The writers didn’t see any need at that point to make anything up about what the incident actually was. The idea was simply that a race that values logic above all else might well have behaved treacherously somewhere along the way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tos-vulcans-traitors/598922.md?page=2)