# Star Trek: What led to Earth's/the Federation's utopia? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 13, 2004, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-what-led-to-earths-the-federations-utopia/274568 "2004-11-13T15:44:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-what-led-to-earths-the-federations-utopia/274568/61 "2004-11-15T01:08:06Z")
> [@Evil Death](#): > > The only economic system that works in a society built around an energy-based replication technology is an energy credit worth a fixed amount of replicator use. This isn’t the same as money, because it’s not a medium of exchange - energy, once used, is removed from the system. The closest thing to purchasing going on is an exchange of hand-crafted items for energy credits, but because energy credits are worthless unless you use them to make items this is more akin to barter than it is to commerce. I just wanted to throw out there that items replicated may cost little energy drain. On more than one occasion we see the O’Brien’s (on DS9) ‘take care of the dishes’ bt putting them back in the replicator and the get ‘dematerialized’. I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that matter is being converted back to energy that is then used for new items. So there IS an inefficiency at work (the food consumed) but the other stuff (and non-consumed food) is recycled into the system. And, to think about it, the waste produced by living beings is probably rendered back into constituent energy, too, and therefore dropped back into the system. ---
**Author:** ![Squire\_Trelane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/779978/32.png) [@Squire\_Trelane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squire_Trelane)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-what-led-to-earths-the-federations-utopia/274568/62 "2004-11-15T02:42:13Z")
Perhaps Sisko’s cooking and Picard’s wine are valuable because they cannot be replicated – under Federation law. The average person probably can’t write a replication program for anything more complex than an inert block, and publicly-available replicators probably have a multitude of safety interlocks to prevent the creation of nerve gases and hyper-virulent plague viruses, and also to protect intellectual property. This means the average Fed citizen either buys or is issued a “black-box” replication program for whatever it is he plans to replicate. Microsoft Replicator Division is subject to Federation copyright law, which demands that any replicator program be sold only by permission of the copyright holder. Picard and Sisko have NOT sold rights to their products, as they intend to market them directly. Thus, if you like Picard '03, you MUST buy it from Picard. The occasional hacker will cross-wire a replicator with a tricorder, thus creating a rig that will enable him to scan and duplicate a bottle of wine, but such efforts are both illegal and (by their “home-workshop” nature) low volume. Picard doesn’t lose enough sales to these small-timers to impact his business. Sisko, of course, has the added advantage of selling an “experience”. Even if our hacker duplicates the blackened redfish, he can’t duplicate the experience element without opening his own restaurant… at which point – WHAM! the Federation Commerce Commission lands on him with both feet. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-what-led-to-earths-the-federations-utopia/274568/63 "2004-11-15T04:24:23Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Or you could “spin” it, as **Pushkin** said, as a case of people packing up and leaving for where there is excitement and challenge and the chance to make an honest energy credit, rather than collect welfare on a totally sanitized, de-funned(\* there’s not even sports on TV in the TNG timeline), child-safed, offensive-language-purged, eco-friendlied Earth where Nader and Cobb would be called far-right reactionaries. As mentioned, it seems that you still need to generate some sort of economic production in order to afford what’s above the baseline level and do things like buy a boat. I think I can agree with this. In the end, it would depend on how you look at things; sort of like asking, “is the glass half-full or half-empty?” Also, just because the Federation won’t let you starve, that doesn’t mean that they have to make your life enjoyable. Perhaps, if you’re unemployed, your replicators will only make gruel and water, and really shabby clothes that make you look like a hobo. > [@](#): > > Apparently, the Earth has a mixed-system economy wherein craftsman-level “boutique” activity such as the Picard Vineyards or Sisko’s Cajun Grill works on a quasi-capitalist mode, but the truly Big-Ticket “macro” production factors are socialized. However, yes, it would seem the relative “price” in energy credit of the non-essential non-replicated “luxuries” like a bottle of Picard '03 with dinner at Sisko’s would have to be exhorbitant, in order to avoid the tragedy-of-the-commons scenario. No arguments here. TUU is basically a communist system, and historically all of the communist states have encountered the same problem: without any economic incentive to work hard, it becomes extremely difficult to motivate people to do anything. By the time the Soviet Union collapsed, work ethic was almost non-existant, and the quality of Soviet products was a joke. You can motivate people for a while for a while by creating enemies, and stoking the nationalistic passions, but eventually this wears thin. In the end, China, Russia, and all of the other communist nations have caved in and allowed capitalism on at least a limited scale. We can postulate that the Federation is no different, and that they allow people to earn credits and buy “luxury” goods and services with them, because otherwise it’s impossible to get anybody to live in a dome on some airless moon and mine dilithium, or spend years on a Starship patrolling the galaxy and risking death on a daily basis. This leads back to a theory that myself and others have postulated. I still think that it’s likely that Starfleet officers have all sorts of “perks” that civilians don’t get. Like free use of transporters, and replicators that make things other than basic necessities, without having to spend credits. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-what-led-to-earths-the-federations-utopia/274568/64 "2004-11-15T04:28:23Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > In one show, Kirk says to Scotty something like “Mister Scott, you just earned your pay for the month”. There is evidently some form of compensation for work and for private exchange of goods and services (in the crew’s case, to pay for that which is not Sf-issue), even if it’s not “money”. On the other hand, he might have just been using an archaic figure of speech. (Like “burning the midnight petroleum product.” :D) Just kiddin’. Actually, though, there _were_ quite a few references to currency used within the Federation in TOS, through Star Trek III. In Star Trek _IV_, Kirk claims that they don’t have money anymore, but that might mean either a) the Federation was _just phasing out money_ by that point, or (more likely) b) Kirk was trying to skip out on a Pizza bill. By TNG, the Federation seemed to be operating pretty much without money, although an unreadable (by the TV audience) prop PADD used in one episode (“The Price”) mentions an offer for “1,500,000 Federation Credits” for the use of a major Wormhole. (Of course, maybe the Federation only uses money when dealing with outside forces) A few more notes on Federation economics [here.](http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/inconsistencies/economy.htm) And about the effects of Replicators on the Federation’s society and economy—in TOS (and Enterprise, which is set 150 years (I think) earlier) there might not have _been_ Replicators. In TOS, the ship had “food slots”/“food processors,” which may have just been glorified dumbwaiters from the ship’s galley. One episode indicated that they weren’t able to produce proper turkeys for a thanksgiving dinner—the chef reports to Kirk about putting synthetic meatloafs in the ovens. At the very least, the synthetic meatloaf might have been replicated on the ship (in bulk, only in the galley, I’d guess) , to be cooked later. From this, you might be the arguement that most people on Earth (or the other Federation worlds) are living off of crude “people chow” from replicators, or that Starships only use the crude replicated food because it’s easier than carting food around, and the civilians on Federation worlds were still eating natural food. (Well, non-replicated food, at least. It might have been clone-vat grown food, or something.) And, we don’t know how good 23rd century (and earlier) replicators would have been at making things that you didn’t want to eat—like machinery, or electronics, or even raw materials. (You can’t replicate dilithium, or latinum, as I remember. That’s why latinum was valulable.) And, about the Federation colonists…it’s more than possible that some of the colonies were founded by people who just wanted to set up new communities that, while within the Federation, could have their own customs, social structure, and laws. (Within certain legal limits, I’d imagine—you probably couldn’t found a Holy Inquisition Planet within the Federation, even if you didn’t bother anyone outside your own planet.) Actually, we’ve already seen such colonies on the show—like Risa (you know, the sex planet); or the planets settled by American Indians; or that colony patterned after 19th century Scotland. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-what-led-to-earths-the-federations-utopia/274568/65 "2004-11-15T04:38:14Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > Maybe I should file one too… the guy driving the runabout \*did \*say he didn’t see me and considering my mass, I find that hard to believe… Yeah! Your vertion particle emmissions alone are readable on even the most rudimentary scanning device. Stone knives and bear skins… ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-what-led-to-earths-the-federations-utopia/274568/66 "2004-11-15T04:46:29Z")
> [@Ranchoth](#): > > And about the effects of Replicators on the Federation’s society and economy—in TOS (and Enterprise, which is set 150 years (I think) earlier) there might not have _been_ Replicators. In TOS, the ship had “food slots”/“food processors,” which may have just been glorified dumbwaiters from the ship’s galley. One episode indicated that they weren’t able to produce proper turkeys for a thanksgiving dinner—the chef reports to Kirk about putting synthetic meatloafs in the ovens. At the very least, the synthetic meatloaf might have been replicated on the ship (in bulk, only in the galley, I’d guess) , to be cooked later. We see a working galley in _Star Trek VI_, though, complete with cooks chopping vegeteables and boiling stew and whatnot. To demonstrate the phaser alarm system, Valeris casually plucks a phaser from an open locker (yes, there was an open weapons locker in the galley, possibly in case the _gagh_ starting acting up) and vaporizes a large metal pot. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-what-led-to-earths-the-federations-utopia/274568/67 "2004-11-15T04:49:26Z")
Was it ever said on-screen what the meal was for? I always got the impression it was for Thanksgiving or something similar in which case, tradition might dictate that all food be cooked the old-fashioned way, much like it is today. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-what-led-to-earths-the-federations-utopia/274568/68 "2004-11-15T04:50:45Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > No arguments here. TUU is basically a communist system, and historically all of the communist states have encountered the same problem: without any economic incentive to work hard, it becomes extremely difficult to motivate people to do anything. By the time the Soviet Union collapsed, work ethic was almost non-existant, and the quality of Soviet products was a joke. You can motivate people for a while for a while by creating enemies, and stoking the nationalistic passions, but eventually this wears thin. It’s been said several times on the last few series’ that people were now motivated chiefly “to better themselves,” and that’s why their society functions. By that, you could say— A) People of the future have, naturally, shaped up into this kind of progressive attitude. ::Pause:: Yeah, well, that’s also coming from a universe with a Gangster Planet and at least two Greek Worlds, and where Heisenburg can be circumvented. All the _other_ laws of reality are bound to be a bit screwey, too. 😉 B) People do have this attitude—maybe as a result of advanced social manipulation/propagana. Morally, a bit questionable…but still, I guess you’d have to weigh that against the creation of a civilization without poverty, crime, war, hunger, racism, etc., and was giving everyone a pretty good quality of life. Someone who’d otherwise be starving to death in a hopeless backwater probably would think that’d be a fair trade. C) The starfleet officers spouting the “people better themselves” spiel are lying/spouting the party line. The Federation really ISN’T a complete paradise for everyone, and mankind really HASN’T advanced all that much, but the relative “elites” don’t want to admit it. (Or are afraid to) D) Like C, only the starfleet officers we see _actually believe_ what they’re saying is true, though it’s not. Either they’ve convinced or rationalized it to themselves, or the propaganda machine is just doing an amazing job at covering up the plight of the poor, suffering, proletariat. (Or whoever the downtrodden people are supposed to be.) No one take this the wrong way, but…Is this thread a Parliament of Geeks, or a Congress of Nerds? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-what-led-to-earths-the-federations-utopia/274568/69 "2004-11-15T05:01:21Z")
> [@](#): > > Was it ever said on-screen what the meal was for? I always got the impression it was for Thanksgiving or something similar in which case, tradition might dictate that all food be cooked the old-fashioned way, much like it is today. Yes, they actually said it was for Thanksgiving. (And they did say it was the galley—Roddenberry himself did the voice of the chef. He’s thumbing his nose at us through the ages. 😉 ) However, I doubt you’d keep ovens onboard (with the galley) just for the sake of cooking traditional thanksgiving meals—for one thing, how many countries, on Earth, celebrate thanksgiving with a Turkey feast? What about the starships that _don’t_ have a mostly American or Canadian crew? What about the Intrepid, which had a mostly _Vulcan_ crew? Er…sorry if that sounds like I’m jumping down your throat, or something. 'Was not my intent. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-what-led-to-earths-the-federations-utopia/274568/70 "2004-11-15T05:09:10Z")
Doesn’t come off as you jumping down my throat at all. In a situation like that, I would just assume each ship might carry the traditional cooking equipment of its culture as its apparent each ship has its own base crew. The \*Enterprise, \*being humans of mostly European (and especially American) stock, would obviously carry Western equipment and be able to celebrate their holidays as they please whereas the Intrepid would do the equivalent. If you’re a minority (or the only one of your kind, i.e. Nog or Worf), you just get along the best you can with whatever’s laying around, I suppose. Only a WAG on my part, obviously. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-what-led-to-earths-the-federations-utopia/274568/71 "2004-11-15T05:52:13Z")
> [@Ranchoth](#): > > In Star Trek _IV_, Kirk claims that they don’t have money anymore, but that might mean either a) the Federation was _just phasing out money_ by that point, or (more likely) b) Kirk was trying to skip out on a Pizza bill. The most common interpretation seems to be that Kirk was referring to **currency** (i.e. pieces of paper or metal with pictures of dead Federation Presidents on them) rather than “money” _per se_. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-what-led-to-earths-the-federations-utopia/274568/72 "2004-11-15T13:32:59Z")
Yeah, that’s my take on it. There’s no ‘currency’. That doesn’t mean there isn’t a means of accounting that allows for the transfer of value. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-what-led-to-earths-the-federations-utopia/274568/73 "2004-11-15T17:49:43Z")
> [@](#): > > D) Like C, only the starfleet officers we see actually believe what they’re saying is true, though it’s not. Either they’ve convinced or rationalized it to themselves, or the propaganda machine is just doing an amazing job at covering up the plight of the poor, suffering, proletariat. (Or whoever the downtrodden people are supposed to be.) I’d say that this isn’t much of a stretch. Remember, Starfleet officers spend their lives on spaceships, on tours of duty that are years long, with only occasional shore leave on places like Risa. It wouldn’t suprise me a bit to find that many of them are rather out-of-touch with life “on the outside.” Also, notice how many officers bring their families onto their starships to live with them. This means that there is a large group of children who grew up in Starfleet, and know no other life. Human nature being what it is, these kids are probably given an inside track into Starfleet Academy. I’m starting to wonder if we might be seeing the evolution of a “warrior class” in the Federation, where the majority of Starfleet officers were born into Starfleet families, and expect their children to follow in their footsteps. * * * I’ve noticed that my posts have been rather pessimistic in tone. In truth, I really don’t think life as worker bee in the Federation would be all that much different than life in a modern Western country. They have a good welfare system which makes sure that you don’t starve, but if you don’t want to spend your life as a welfare bum, then you have to work and earn money (or energy credits or whatever you want to call it) so you can buy nice things for yourself. This would be what the Federation philosophers refer to as “bettering yourself.” Well, OK, I guess there would be some differences. The communist aspects of Federation society probably mean that anything which is considered a “luxury” item is horribly expensive. After all, capitalism is evil, society has advanced beyond material desires, and all of that doctrine. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-what-led-to-earths-the-federations-utopia/274568/74 "2004-11-15T23:56:42Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > Well, OK, I guess there would be some differences. The communist aspects of Federation society probably mean that anything which is considered a “luxury” item is horribly expensive. After all, capitalism is evil, society has advanced beyond material desires, and all of that doctrine. They would not even have to do that by central planning in many cases – for “boutique” non-mass-producible goods/services (Chateau Picard wines, the Picard estate itself), the “relative price” would go thru the roof simply because of limited supply vs. a potentially multiplanetary demand. In in the case of services that are not infinitely suppliable, let’s say if Scotty wants to berth his boat at a specific harbor and sail into and out of it, he will be occupying part of a finite space. He may be able to have a boat assembled reasonably cheap, but he’s gonna get hit right under the kilt in fees for the boat broker to arrange _where to put it_. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-what-led-to-earths-the-federations-utopia/274568/75 "2004-11-16T00:32:50Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > They would not even have to do that by central planning in many cases – for “boutique” non-mass-producible goods/services (Chateau Picard wines, the Picard estate itself), the “relative price” would go thru the roof simply because of limited supply vs. a potentially multiplanetary demand. In in the case of services that are not infinitely suppliable, let’s say if Scotty wants to berth his boat at a specific harbor and sail into and out of it, he will be occupying part of a finite space. He may be able to have a boat assembled reasonably cheap, but he’s gonna get hit right under the kilt in fees for the boat broker to arrange _where to put it_. Actually, that wouldn’t be too different from the way things are today. If you want to lease a docking slip in Key West or Martha’s Vinyard, you pretty much have be able to bend over and crap out money. Still, I’d think that for luxury items which could be mass-produced (like a boat, or a quad-bike, or a helecopter) they’d probably artificially inflate the price, or else impose artificial limits on how many of them are produced in a year. ---
**Author:** ![Nonsuch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonsuch/32/2922_2.png) [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-what-led-to-earths-the-federations-utopia/274568/76 "2004-11-16T05:17:59Z")
Why do I get the feeling there was a lot more thought expended in this thread than in a typical Trek writers’ room? 😉 In any event, this has definitely been a lot more interesting than most Trek episodes, so kudos to you all. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Death](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@Evil\_Death](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Death)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-what-led-to-earths-the-federations-utopia/274568/77 "2004-11-16T08:46:49Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > They would not even have to do that by central planning in many cases – for “boutique” non-mass-producible goods/services (Chateau Picard wines, the Picard estate itself), the “relative price” would go thru the roof simply because of limited supply vs. a potentially multiplanetary demand. In our monetary society, yes. In a society where great wealth is irrelevant, though, it takes only a few smart people who realise that they don’t need the money to put the greedy misers out of business. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-what-led-to-earths-the-federations-utopia/274568/78 "2004-11-16T14:05:26Z")
> [@Evil Death](#): > > In our monetary society, yes. In a society where great wealth is irrelevant, though, it takes only a few smart people who realise that they don’t need the money to put the greedy misers out of business. Ah, thank you – there’s the opposite-extreme example, which we had been somewhat blinded to. We had been thinking, if there’s a currencyless society where material-resource inputs are trivially obtained, and people work “for personal betterment”, what prevents a million people a night from just mobbing Sisko’s, or the Caribbean from becoming unnavigable because it’s shore-to-shore parked solid with yatchs. And concluded that for luxury goods/services and finite-usage rights, we’d probably have prohibitive prices in whatever-means-of-value-exchange. But, you have said, people who realize the sellers “don’t need the money” would put them out of business. How? Boycott? Undercompete by just giving away stuff? For the one, they’d have to convince the consumers that somehow they have to reject anyone charging dearly for a luxury item. To which the people would say, what’s it to you? For the other, even if you give away cases of Chateau Evildeath Merlot, it’s still not a traditionally-crafted Picard vintage, and some people are snobs, even in the Federation. Sure my $20 Timex tells time as good as a $5,000 Rolex. But somebody’s buying Rolexes. But, your post brings up another good point, and the opposite extreme of what TUU means for Small and Medium Businesses like Picard Vineyards and Sisko’s Grill: since they don’t really “need the money”, _and neither do the customers_, the Small Business “Mom & Pop” outfit _does not need to compete with Wal-Mart_. It does not need to _get_ a mass clientele. It can stay in business virtually forever and even earn a modest credit just on a small hard core of dedicated fans who just like to drop in and say “hi” to Mom and Pop and enjoy the ambience of old-school goods/services. ---
**Author:** ![Linus\_Van\_Pelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@Linus\_Van\_Pelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linus_Van_Pelt)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-what-led-to-earths-the-federations-utopia/274568/79 "2004-11-16T18:01:16Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > But, your post brings up another good point, and the opposite extreme of what TUU means for Small and Medium Businesses like Picard Vineyards and Sisko’s Grill: since they don’t really “need the money”, _and neither do the customers_, the Small Business “Mom & Pop” outfit _does not need to compete with Wal-Mart_. It does not need to _get_ a mass clientele. It can stay in business virtually forever and even earn a modest credit just on a small hard core of dedicated fans who just like to drop in and say “hi” to Mom and Pop and enjoy the ambience of old-school goods/services. Actually, in those circumstances, Wal-Mart doesn’t exist. Nor does any other business whose sole purpose is selling as much crap as possible as cheaply as possible. Which, I realize, may have been your point in saying that “Mom & Pop” outfits don’t have to compete with them. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-what-led-to-earths-the-federations-utopia/274568/80 "2004-11-16T20:27:29Z")
> [@Ranchoth](#): > > In Star Trek _IV_, Kirk claims that they don’t have money anymore, but that might mean either a) the Federation was _just phasing out money_ by that point, or (more likely) b) Kirk was trying to skip out on a Pizza bill. or (MUCH more likely), (c) Kirk was trying to bag the cute whale scientist lady. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-what-led-to-earths-the-federations-utopia/274568.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-what-led-to-earths-the-federations-utopia/274568.md?page=5)