# Star Trek: What led to Earth's/the Federation's utopia? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 13, 2004, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-what-led-to-earths-the-federations-utopia/274568 "2004-11-13T15:44:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-what-led-to-earths-the-federations-utopia/274568/101 "2004-11-17T20:55:00Z")
> [@vibrotronica](#): > > This has been a really, really good thread. > > How does a culture like the Federation fall? By conquest, certainly, but what are the weaknesses in the system? One weakness would be captains who wait until their shields are half down before even contemplating firing back…or warp cores that never eject… Oh, you meant societial flaws? ---
**Author:** ![Linus\_Van\_Pelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@Linus\_Van\_Pelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linus_Van_Pelt)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-what-led-to-earths-the-federations-utopia/274568/102 "2004-11-17T21:09:21Z")
Why “bletch”, **Carnivorousplant**? I don’t believe that time travel stories are _inhently_ flawed; they simply usually aren’t written well. Very often, in my opinion, becuase writers use time travel as a gimick (Ooh, look! Time travel! Ooh, look! It’s a paradox!) rather than just trying to write good stories. Also, I don’t understand your point about TNG vs. TOS. There **are** bigger bad guys. They **can** be damaged by natural events. Sure, they’re big and bad and technologically advanced, but so are their enemies. You might as well say that it makes for better storytelling to set everything in the past because in modern society people don’t routinely have to fight off wild animals. Although I do think there is one place that technology creates storytelling problems and that’s medicine - one of the biggest problems I had with Trek continuity was the fact that they’d literally bring someone back to life one episode, then have Picard die _on the operating table_ in another. And don’t get me started on the transporter as a medical device. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-what-led-to-earths-the-federations-utopia/274568/103 "2004-11-17T21:19:42Z")
> [@NoClueBoy](#): > > have them phase in and out of polarity WTF? ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-what-led-to-earths-the-federations-utopia/274568/104 "2004-11-17T21:24:11Z")
Also, if we are doing the eleventy billionth “What Should the Next Trek Be?” discussion, I still say we need to do the anthology idea where each episode is a standalone explaining some little known aspect of Star Trek history. Each show could open with Crewman Daniels giving a little monologue, explaining what we’re about to see, and then, over his shoulder, the camera zooms into The Guardian of Forever who shows us this week’s episode. I think it’d rock. No pun intended. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-what-led-to-earths-the-federations-utopia/274568/105 "2004-11-17T21:59:57Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > Each show could open with Crewman Daniels giving a little monologue, explaining what we’re about to see, and then, over his shoulder, the camera zooms into The Guardian of Forever who shows us this week’s episode. No, Picard on the bridge: “People down there are killing and eating each other while the Prime Directive prevents us from doing anything except drinking tea and scratching ourselves. Activate the viewscreen. 1024 channels and there’s nothing on…” The episode begins on the viewscreen. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-what-led-to-earths-the-federations-utopia/274568/106 "2004-11-17T22:23:18Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > I’ve often thought that the Federation seems to be a rather boastful and self-aggrandizing society. I mean, they say that Starfleet isn’t a military force. Yet it looks like a military force, serves the same function, and has a command structure copied directly from 20 Century Earth naval forces. And they say that they’ve comquered hate and predjudice. Yet look how the TOS crew treats Klingons, or how the TNG crew treats Ferengi. Or look at the Changeling “witch hunt” in DS9. They might have conquered predjudice between humans, but it certainly appears that xenophobia has stepped into take its place. To be fair, in TOS they were fully aware that they weren’t perfect. In **Arena** the aliens staging the fight tell Kirk that humans are promising, and Spock says something like he was beginning to wonder. In **Balance of Terror** we see a crewman bigoted against Vulcans. Then there is the beautiful scene in **Errand of Mercy** where Kirk finds himself arguing with the Klingons to the Organians about their right to have a big war.(Now that was good writing!) But in the early seasons of TNG they are a bunch of sanctimonious jerks. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-what-led-to-earths-the-federations-utopia/274568/107 "2004-11-17T22:43:12Z")
> [@vibrotronica](#): > > I asked about the downfall of the TUU because it seems like the breakup of the Federation would be the next logical part of the storyline. Either that, or the people of the Federation would start evolving into beings of pure energy. (Which _has_ happened to other species in the various series’.) Kinda hard to write a show about a bunch of sentient energy packets grooving around in a state of Nirvana. (Much less one where one energy packet gets to “get it on” with a hot alien chick every week.) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-what-led-to-earths-the-federations-utopia/274568/108 "2004-11-17T22:47:50Z")
The Vulcans, Andorians, Tellarites, et al might evolve into beings of pure energy but as the Voyager episode, _Threshold_, shows, humans are destined to become giant lizards. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Death](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@Evil\_Death](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Death)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-what-led-to-earths-the-federations-utopia/274568/109 "2004-11-18T00:19:41Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > This is probably why they refuse to go into the future. They know that there’s really nowhere to go but down. But they don’t have the guts to go there, All I can say to that is “Star Trek: Mariner”. The series wasn’t made because Enterprise isn’t successful enough, but there _were_ plans to set a series during or just after the breakdown of the Federation. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-what-led-to-earths-the-federations-utopia/274568/110 "2004-11-18T00:21:30Z")
Cite? I’ve never heard anything about a sixth series. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-what-led-to-earths-the-federations-utopia/274568/111 "2004-11-18T00:22:43Z")
Er. Seventh. TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VGR, and ENT make six. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-what-led-to-earths-the-federations-utopia/274568/112 "2004-11-18T00:46:53Z")
Nyeh. Do we really count TAS? And spill with some story on Mariner! ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-what-led-to-earths-the-federations-utopia/274568/113 "2004-11-18T00:55:44Z")
As a series, yeah, but as anything official, no. Except for “Yesteryear”, of course. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-what-led-to-earths-the-federations-utopia/274568/114 "2004-11-18T01:00:47Z")
> [@Evil Death](#): > > All I can say to that is “Star Trek: Mariner”. The series wasn’t made because Enterprise isn’t successful enough, but there _were_ plans to set a series during or just after the breakdown of the Federation. Just once. In 1960. For about 20 minutes. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-what-led-to-earths-the-federations-utopia/274568/115 "2004-11-18T01:15:31Z")
> [@Evil Death](#): > > there _were_ plans to set a series during or just after the breakdown of the Federation. Sounds like some of that got recycled into Andromeda. (What next, “Gene Roddenberry’s _Idea Scribbled On Cocktail Napkin Just Before He Croaked_”?) ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-what-led-to-earths-the-federations-utopia/274568/116 "2004-11-18T01:23:29Z")
Star Trek: Mariner. The Mariner space probe collides with a Chicago Reader server. The resulting superiorly ignorant device thinks that Cecil is g-d, and attempts to exterminate all non perfect posters. Only kn(\*)ckers survives. ---
**Author:** ![Linus\_Van\_Pelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@Linus\_Van\_Pelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linus_Van_Pelt)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-what-led-to-earths-the-federations-utopia/274568/117 "2004-11-18T01:41:55Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > To be fair, in TOS they were fully aware that they weren’t perfect. In **Arena** the aliens staging the fight tell Kirk that humans are promising, and Spock says something like he was beginning to wonder. In **Balance of Terror** we see a crewman bigoted against Vulcans. Then there is the beautiful scene in **Errand of Mercy** where Kirk finds himself arguing with the Klingons to the Organians about their right to have a big war.(Now that was good writing!) But in the early seasons of TNG they are a bunch of sanctimonious jerks. Which goes back to Roddenberry, who took a much more active role in the early seasons. Human perfectablity through technology seemed to be his belief and his influence definately showed. > [@JRDelirious](#): > > (What next, “Gene Roddenberry’s Idea Scribbled On Cocktail Napkin Just Before He Croaked”?) Wasn’t that _Earth, Final Conflict_? \* \*Apologies to any fans of the show. I actually know nothing about it and it might have been a decent show, but if I remember correctly it was, at best, **very** loosely based on a few of his notes. “Created by Gene Roddenberry” was mostly a marketing gimick. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Death](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@Evil\_Death](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Death)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-what-led-to-earths-the-federations-utopia/274568/118 "2004-11-18T22:57:00Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > Cite? I’ve never heard anything about a sixth series. It may not have gone past the “we’re thinking about this” stage. I can’t recall where I saw the note, but I think it was on [scifi.com](http://scifi.com)’s Wire page. ---
**Author:** ![Catalyst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@Catalyst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catalyst)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-what-led-to-earths-the-federations-utopia/274568/119 "2004-11-19T08:53:16Z")
> [@Linus Van Pelt](#): > > Wasn’t that _Earth, Final Conflict_? \* > > \*Apologies to any fans of the show. I actually know nothing about it and it might have been a decent show, but if I remember correctly it was, at best, **very** loosely based on a few of his notes. “Created by Gene Roddenberry” was mostly a marketing gimick. No idea how much influence Roddenberry had on it, but this really wasn’t a bad show, at least not initially. The basic plot, I thought, was pretty cool: Sometime after a fairly nasty (nuclear, I think, but apparently regional) war between India and China, an alien race reveals itself to humanity. Their technology eliminates famine, dramatically improves transportation and communication, etc., and generally improves quality of life for the average human. Some are suspicious of the “Companions’” motives, however. For the first couple of seasons, the show focuses primarily on the resistance movement’s attempts to discover the Taelons’ real reasons for coming to Earth. The implementation could’ve been a lot better, but the idea wasn’t bad. It’s been a while since I watched the show, but I remember the technology shown being one of the cooler things about the show. There’s one technology in particular that interests me because it’s coming closer and closer to being realized. Seemingly everybody on the show carries a “[global](http://www.jjambproductions.com/images/globallink4.jpg),” a sort of video phone/PDA/GPS. What I think is so neat about it is its shape. When closed, it’s around the size of a cellphone, but it can be opened to reveal a screen that’s either telescoping or rolls up like a scroll. If developments in flexible TFT screens continue, I think we’ll eventually see products with a design like this. Anyway, I just realized that it’s 4:00 AM and I’m hijacking a Star Trek thread to babble about a sci-fi show that hardly anyone watched. This can only mean one thing: I need sleep. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-what-led-to-earths-the-federations-utopia/274568/120 "2004-11-19T20:14:13Z")
> [@](#): > > by Linus Van Pelt > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by JRDelirious > > > > But, your post brings up another good point, and the opposite extreme of what TUU means for Small and Medium Businesses like Picard Vineyards and Sisko’s Grill: since they don’t really “need the money”, and neither do the customers, the Small Business “Mom & Pop” outfit does not need to compete with Wal-Mart. It does not need to get a mass clientele. It can stay in business virtually forever and even earn a modest credit just on a small hard core of dedicated fans who just like to drop in and say “hi” to Mom and Pop and enjoy the ambience of old-school goods/services. > > Actually, in those circumstances, Wal-Mart doesn’t exist. Nor does any other business whose sole purpose is selling as much crap as possible as cheaply as possible. Which, I realize, may have been your point in saying that “Mom & Pop” outfits don’t have to compete with them. With replicators and transporters, Mom & Pop could sell everything that Wal-Mart does, for the same prices, and with old-fashioned personal customer service like in the upscale boutiques. :eek: The Federation is a giant Amway network! Run for your lives! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-what-led-to-earths-the-federations-utopia/274568.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-what-led-to-earths-the-federations-utopia/274568.md?page=7)