For the above posts regarding the colonies, I always thought that the idea (in the TNG era and beyond) was that the colonies were founded by people who were sick of all the materialism (or replicatism) of Earth and other major planets and founded their own limited technology worlds which were either offered some form of protection or some sort of membership to the Federation.
For the above posts regarding the colonies, I always thought that the idea (in the TNG era and beyond) was that the colonies were founded by people who were sick of all the materialism (or replicatism) of Earth and other major planets and founded their own limited technology worlds which were either offered some form of protection or some sort of membership to the Federation.
Shot out of a “canon”! Get it? Har!
- Some materials (latinum, for example) cannot be replicated. Food can be replicated. Therefore, all you really need is energy; atoms can be reconstructed at the quantum level, using free energy, assembled into molecules, and from there into chocolate mousse and filet mignon. All you have to worry about is the computer nagging you about your daily calorie intake.
This implies that one’s basic necessities (and a great many objects that aren’t necessities, but that you might want, like gold jewelry, golf clubs, and Earl Grey tea) are cheap to the point of being effectively free, since matter and energy can be swapped around left and right in the Star Trek universe with minimal effort and/or expense.
This allows for two possibilities:
(a) the social order allows you a small allowance to see to your needs. You can replicate your clothes and food, and perhaps you can be assigned quarters, but if you want a cabin cruiser, a trip to Mercury, or gold-pressed latinum, you need some way of earning more credit.
(b) the social order requires you to have some sort of little job in order to earn the small amount of credit you’d need to pay for your clothes, room, and board. Theoretically, a part-time job at McDonalds’ could cover this expense, with cash to spare.
This could explain why the Picard family has a vineyard; sure, you can replicate all the Boone’s Farm you want, but it’s a status symbol to have a bottle of Picard Vineyards '03 in the wine rack; this means that basic economics are still in play, to some extent, and Jean-Luc’s family could afford the rent or tax or whatever on all that land (I actually wondered about this when I saw that episode originally – “if the future has no money, how does the Picard family have the rights to all that land?”)
The more I think about this model, the more I rather like it – people would be freed from the necessity of covering their basic needs, and would be free to pursue their total potential, instead. Everyone could work four hours a week to pay the bills and get some pocket money, and spend the rest of their time taking classes, improving themselves, creating art… or smokin’ dope and watchin’ TV, as they saw fit.
Naturally, the talented and ambitious would strive harder and climb higher – some would become starship captains, some would obtain rights to vineyards, and some would open exclusive little bistros on Bourbon Street in New Orleans, like Capt. Sisko’s old man.
…which begs the question of “who decides?”
In a world without conventional economics, does Mr. Sisko buy that storefront on Bourbon Street, or does he petition the city council? Upon what factors does his “ownership” of it devolve? By the same token, does the Picard family have to periodically fend off challenges from other potential land-users who think that the vineyard would serve Humanity better if it were an automated taco stand?
Then again, considering Roddenberry’s track record, maybe this is why he decided to take his TV show into space. In a world that can’t support a TV show like “Boston Public,” who’s going to want to watch a weekly series about economics and social issues? 
This whole discussion about the (non) military nature of Starfleet makes me feel like saying, “I have an idea. Suppose we agree that it’s structured exactly like a military organization, fights wars, and serves all of the functions that the military does - which is nobody’s fault, not even Berman & Braga’s - but that Gene Roddenberry had the right to say that it wasn’t a military organization.”
But I wouldn’t say that. It would be entirely too silly.
I understand your point, but however they did it, it clearly seems as if all of the nasty unpleasant aspects of life have been shipped off to remote space colonies, and with them the majority of the human population. The people who live on these colonies do not seem to be living the same kind carefree existance that Picard’s brother or Sisko’s dad do. Which, to me, suggests that the people who live on Earth are a “ruling class” who live off the efforts of the people in the colonies.
I’ve thought about this before. There were also a couple of references to “credits,” which appeared to be some form of currency, and IIRC Scotty bought a boat in preparation for his retirement. We’ve heard characters insist that Federation does not have any money, but I say that if the people of the Federation can convince themselves that Starfleet is not a military force, then it’s not much of a stretch to theorize that they’ve convinced themselves that their credit system is not money, even though it serves the same purpose.
The only economic system that works in a society built around an energy-based replication technology is an energy credit worth a fixed amount of replicator use. This isn’t the same as money, because it’s not a medium of exchange - energy, once used, is removed from the system. The closest thing to purchasing going on is an exchange of hand-crafted items for energy credits, but because energy credits are worthless unless you use them to make items this is more akin to barter than it is to commerce.
There is also no variable for quality in replicated items - only quantity matters. A gourmet meal with all the trimmings costs the same as the equivalent calorific value of Big Macs. When there’s no difference in price between any two items of similar nature but differing quality, the concept of personal wealth goes out the window - the richest man alive is no better off than any man who can afford what he needs. This has enormous economic implications, which I won’t bore you with (and I’m shaky on the details besides).
So it’s not really a stretch, when you think about it. The Federation’s economic system bears only a superficial resemblance to a moentary system.
True. However, there will be a substantial difference between replicating an authentic Cajun meal with all the trimmings, and ordering one at Sisko’s in New Orleans, prepared (presumably) by real authentic highly skilled Cajun chefs!
There will, therefore, be an economic deficit between the two. Plainly it will be “cheaper” as far as credit goes, to eat at home out of the replicator than it will be to eat at Sisko’s. In DS9, we see an example of this – one can eat at the Federation mess hall (if you’re a Fed or a Bajoran employee), or you can eat at the Replimat, on the Promenade. I seem to recall that it was pointed out once on the show that eating at the Replimat was more expensive than eating in one’s quarters… despite the fact that it was all replicated food.
This implies that one is paying for the convenience. Someone’s pocketing the difference between the cost of the food at the Replimat and the actual prices.
So… we’ve established that people are willing to pay for convenience, and it’s implied that talented individuals can profit by creating and selling goods that can otherwise be easily replicated (French wines and Cajun food). Precisely why would folks buy the non-replicated versions? Same reasons we pay more for stuff here and now: status, “specialness,” or a percieved difference between Real and Memorex. Class, maybe (Dahling! In this house, we do NOT serve replicated caviar!)
…and if you want the good stuff, you’ve got to pay for it. What do Sisko and the Picards charge for their goods? Somehow, I don’t think I could pay the tab at Sisko’s with replicated coins… or replicated anything else…
…which implies SOME sort of surviving economic system… perhaps based on energy credits of some sort… unless Sisko and Picard simply give their goods away to anyone who walks in…
…in which case, if the food at Sisko’s is any good, what keeps half the universe from walking in and ordering the Jambalaya? And upon what basis does the Picard family hand out bottles of fine French wine? First come first served? And they just bask in the fact that they must be really good, since they have so many “customers?”
I dunno. I’d think there needs to be some sort of greater “incentive…”
(oh, yeah. Quark’s casino. In a moneyless society, why would anyone gamble? Most casino games are actually fairly dull if you aren’t playing for money of some sort…)
Quark’s casino is dealing with more economic systems than jsut the Feds. He’s got all sorts of traffic from that wormhole. And before that, it was a Cardass economic system.
You’re quite right, of course… but why would Feds gamble there? (as Commander Riker did, rather heavily, on at least one occasion)
Just WAG, mind you, but I imagine that way out in the boonies, even Fed citizens need some form of negotiable currency. o deal with other cultures and systems.
What happened to my capital T?
Lost it at dabo, it seems…
But DS9 is not entirely “Federated”, and the Federation people there have to deal with other societies that do still engage in such dealings. Can you provide a cite of such commerce in territory entirely controlled by the Federation?
Assuming there are a few true primary resources like dilithium or latinum, someone has to acquire these. In TOS we saw (in the first Harry Mudd epsiode) that in exchange for enduring an extremely hard life for a few years, dilithium miners would be set for life.
Plus there’s the service sector. Anything involving a sentient spending it’s time waiting on you that isn’t volunteer work has to somehow cost you (although the holodeck has probably cut into this for things like masseurs, even if the holodeck itself isn’t free).
And there’s probably a lot of knowledge work involving top-level design and decision making. Anyone can do a basic holodeck program, but only gifted experts can make truly great ones, just like videogame design today.
Because it’s fun.
Even if the Federation doesn’t use money, they have to interact with other societies that do, so they would need a means of acquiring currency.
Hello? Look at last posts of page one, y’all.
Damn invisibility suit…
Or you could “spin” it, as Pushkin said, as a case of people packing up and leaving for where there is excitement and challenge and the chance to make an honest energy credit, rather than collect welfare on a totally sanitized, de-funned(* there’s not even sports on TV in the TNG timeline), child-safed, offensive-language-purged, eco-friendlied Earth where Nader and Cobb would be called far-right reactionaries. As mentioned, it seems that you still need to generate some sort of economic production in order to afford what’s above the baseline level and do things like buy a boat.
Apparently, the Earth has a mixed-system economy wherein craftsman-level “boutique” activity such as the Picard Vineyards or Sisko’s Cajun Grill works on a quasi-capitalist mode, but the truly Big-Ticket “macro” production factors are socialized. However, yes, it would seem the relative “price” in energy credit of the non-essential non-replicated “luxuries” like a bottle of Picard '03 with dinner at Sisko’s would have to be exhorbitant, in order to avoid the tragedy-of-the-commons scenario.
Private land ownership apparently has not been abolished, so they can say, mais non, it’s not for sale. Since thanks to TUU their society no longer “needs” to take large acreages of land to provide more “development” (tract housing or factories or malls or dumps) for a growing population, the only risk to the Picards is if the local government wants to build a shuttle landing facility or something.
But of course, they would not do that. They’re too enlightened :dubious:
I filed an invisibility suit in the Federal District Court a month ago. But I think they didn’t see it.
Some folks have no shame.
Maybe I should file one too… the guy driving the runabout *did *say he didn’t see me and considering my mass, I find that hard to believe…