# Star Trek's Federation: Dystopian? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 31, 2020, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-treks-federation-dystopian/916924 "2020-07-31T16:48:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2020, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-treks-federation-dystopian/916924/22 "2020-08-01T04:17:23Z")
And Cisko’s father’s restaurant making unreplicated food from unreplicated ingredients is also treated as something unusual (but positive). ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2020, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-treks-federation-dystopian/916924/23 "2020-08-01T04:45:16Z")
I’d like to see an episode set on a less than affluent planet where a whining 1950s-style housewife pesters her poor shlub of a husband to buy the latest in household technologies: “How come the people next _door_ can afford a replicator but we _can’t_?” 🤨 ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2020, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-treks-federation-dystopian/916924/24 "2020-08-01T06:42:04Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Then Picard or Sisko has to step in and remind people of thew rules. _Sisko_, the war criminal? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2020, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-treks-federation-dystopian/916924/25 "2020-08-01T13:46:10Z")
I kind of get the impression that living on a Federation core world is probably very similar to something out of Brave New World or Demolition Man. Maybe they don’t have formal class hierarchies (at least…not since the Eugenics Wars), aren’t drugged up all the time (aside from Synthale, Romulan ale, Vulcan brandy, Bajoran tequila, classic Budweiser, etc) and aren’t particularly hedonistic (Commander Riker’s frequent leaves to the Whore-mines of Risa not withstanding). But the more industrialized worlds and space habitats of the Federation seem to be pretty dull in a “mix-use shopping mall and corporate office” sort of way. With their technology, there would be little economic incentive to “do” anything you don’t want to. So if you can’t join Starfleet because you don’t have triple PhDs in warp mechanics from MIT, Annapolis and the Vulcan Institute of Technology and speak several alien languages the only real “jobs” seem to be building artisanal goods for people who don’t like replicators. And this would seem to be something that people would do as a hobbyist rather than out of real economic necessity. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2020, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-treks-federation-dystopian/916924/26 "2020-08-01T15:13:31Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > Khan could have gone back as a prisoner and face trial. He was the one who chose a “habitable, although a bit savage, somewhat inhospitable” planet because, as Milton said, " Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven." McGiver (McIvers?) could have gone with Kahn or return to a Star Fleet court martial. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2020, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-treks-federation-dystopian/916924/27 "2020-08-01T15:16:07Z")
> [@Acerbic](#): > > > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > > > One thing that always bothered me about the federation is the prime directive and the omega directive. > > The Omega Particle is just another example of the bad writing we all came to expect from Voyager. I understand the Prime Directive, at first it seemed to only apply to pre-warp societies, but there were times when it applied to other advanced civilizations as well. In DS9 the Prime Directive was cited as a reason not to get involved in the Bajoran civil war even though they were a warp capable civilization. It’s been a while, but I think the Prime Directive was also cited as a reason not to interfere with the Klingon’s power struggle in TNG. If you can’t get involved in politics with anyone other than the Federation you might as well just stay home and stop exploring. Its more the fact that the federation acts very sanctimonious and morally superior, but if a planet is full of life forms ravaged by disease the federation doesn’t want to get involved despite the fact that a few replicators and emergency medical holograms could transform the planet. Yet if that same planet has something the federation wants (omega particles, raw materials, anti aging properties), then all bets are off. Its imperialism with a smiley face. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2020, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-treks-federation-dystopian/916924/28 "2020-08-01T15:35:55Z")
In _Picard_ it looked like Earth was still sort of OK— at least they weren’t in the middle of yet another hot war against the Klingons or Romulans or whomever— but Picard’s corsairs didn’t need to travel all that far from Earth before running into refugee camps, bandits, the very non-communist cyberpunk world riddled with organised crime, and other crazy stuff. At least anyone ambitious, tired of the brave new world, or who can simply read the writing on the wall can find exciting opportunities off-world, that is, if they can somehow afford passage. Not everyone is rich like Picard, and it does not look like the proles are granted much basic income even if their essential needs are taken care of. ---
**Author:** ![Acerbic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acerbic/32/3695_2.png) [@Acerbic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acerbic)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2020, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-treks-federation-dystopian/916924/29 "2020-08-01T17:03:21Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Its more the fact that the federation acts very sanctimonious and morally superior, but if a planet is full of life forms ravaged by disease the federation doesn’t want to get involved despite the fact that a few replicators and emergency medical holograms could transform the planet. Yet if that same planet has something the federation wants (omega particles, raw materials, anti aging properties), then all bets are off. Its imperialism with a smiley face. One reason why I prefer TOS is that they didn’t make any attempts to portray the Federation as a utopia. In many way things were better in the Federation than they were in 1960s America, people no longer cared about skin color, the nations of Earth all got along, and it didn’t appear as though most people lacked for basic needs, but people of the future still had flaws. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2020, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-treks-federation-dystopian/916924/30 "2020-08-01T19:08:42Z")
> [@Acerbic](#): > > One reason why I prefer TOS is that they didn’t make any attempts to portray the Federation as a utopia. In many way things were better in the Federation than they were in 1960s America, people no longer cared about skin color, the nations of Earth all got along, and it didn’t appear as though most people lacked for basic needs, but people of the future still had flaws Also, the “show bible” for TOS writers explicitly stated to _ **not** _ go into what was the political/economic scene in Earth. ---
**Author:** ![Pavelb1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/439d5e/32.png) [@Pavelb1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pavelb1)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2020, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-treks-federation-dystopian/916924/31 "2020-08-01T20:20:26Z")
This is why we need an upvote button also as to the OP…the Feds had the “Defined as sentient and having rights in this very series” Lore dismantled rather then imprisoned. And thats not even getting into the rights of the holograms and androids (seen in Picard)\* - yes, I know THOSE particular individuals wern’t sentient but leave them on long enough. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2020, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-treks-federation-dystopian/916924/32 "2020-08-01T20:29:50Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I don’t know if there is an economic model for the Federation. Certainly they can enjoy more centralized, socialized services given that they have the technology to convert energy to matter and vice versus. But mostly we see this technology on paramilitary/scientific Starfleet ships and installations. I don’t know that we see a lot of how day to day Starfleet citizens live on Earth or Vulcan. Like does every home have a transporter and a replicator or do people (human or otherwise) need to take a space bus to the space grocery store to pick up space groceries? It’s strongly implied in most iterations of Star Trek that replicated food and drink is the norm, and the real stuff is kind of unusual and considered quaint or a niche thing. This makes perfect sense. Energy in Star Trek is a zillionth as expensive as it is to us, but hard physical resources are spread out amongst even more people. ---
**Author:** ![Pavelb1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/439d5e/32.png) [@Pavelb1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pavelb1)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2020, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-treks-federation-dystopian/916924/33 "2020-08-01T22:11:54Z")
By the way people…as I’ve mentioned a bazillion times since Discovery started, two things: 1. “Roddenberrys vision” His so-called vision was, Make Wagon Train to the Stars,… then make ‘Earth a dystopia with fish out of water leads’ as seen in various failed pilots…THEN make TNG as some sort of utopia where our leads all get along and get to moralize about how superior they are. AND IT SUCKED. And the writers chafed at it and it wasn’t until Roddenberry lost creative control that we got consistently good eps.; 2. The Feds are the good guys and are near-perfect. We only see this through the eyes of a HANDFUL of people. Most of them are on the bridge of the 1710-D the USS USO Tour. A galactic war is raging and almost the entire same bridge crew is still together? (as seen in ST: Insurrection.) And they’re just flying around in the flagship in dress whites? That ship was definietly a USO tour. Just flying the flag and staying out of trouble. But the second we see other crews? Ones whose 'bellies arnt full and dont have their precious root beer?" The facade falls away. As seen in countless episodes. ---
**Author:** ![Kimera757](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kimera757/32/3765_2.png) [@Kimera757](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimera757)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2020, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-treks-federation-dystopian/916924/34 "2020-08-01T22:40:16Z")
> [@Kamino\_Neko](#): > > And Cisko’s father’s restaurant making unreplicated food from unreplicated ingredients is also treated as something unusual (but positive). Some things can’t be replicated, and many people could tell the difference in taste. IIRC Keiko O’Brien insisted on home-cooked meals for her children. Although I think that was only mentioned once. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2020, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-treks-federation-dystopian/916924/35 "2020-08-01T23:08:19Z")
I thought the Star Trek world was dystopian going all the way back to TOS. It was a total surveillance society. EVERYTHING was on video forever. There was no privacy. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2020, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-treks-federation-dystopian/916924/36 "2020-08-02T00:04:11Z")
> [@Kimera757](#): > > IIRC Keiko O’Brien insisted on home-cooked meals for her children. Although I think that was only mentioned once. Her mother-in-law did the same thing and to Keiko’s amazement actually prepared real meat. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2020, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-treks-federation-dystopian/916924/37 "2020-08-03T06:00:14Z")
> [@Pavelb1](#): > > A galactic war is raging and almost the entire same bridge crew is still together? (as seen in ST: Insurrection.) The Star Trek universe of the original and Next Generation show, as well as the Kirk/Spock films, was dramatically different from the universe of the Next Gen movies and the Picard and Discovery shows. Even the characters were different. It got dark, violent, and pessimistic. The first two series WERE optimistic, and it’s not just that they proposed a human race that had set aside its differences, though that’s a big deal, and important to understand the appeal of the show. Star Trek was a show put on TV at a time that American was in the midst of a war it couldn’t win and a seemingly endless argument over race. It then went into syndication while that war was being lost, and American was suffering from oil shortages, runaway crime, and pessimism. The Federation was basically the USA in space - and one where there was no war on Earth, or amongst the Federation, and where racism was so unknown that it confused them when they encountered it. The new series amped it up big time, adding that the human race had gotten rid of material poverty. What’s interesting about those shows is the fact that they really don’t resort to violence very often. Most episodes present the crew with some puzzle to escape, and in Next Gen they are faced with a lot of ethical problems. It’s the solving of an ethical quandary that’s often the episodes’ A story, and it gives the show much of its tone, and makes Picard a correct central character, in that he is the most ETHICAL character, not necessary the smartest or strongest. Minimizing violence correctly placed the emphasis on science fiction stories and ethical quandaries, and had the effect of making the violence seem more impactful when it happened. The Federation of “Star Trek Picard” looks much worse, though the show’s comically illogical story doesn’t help, but in that show you have lots and lots of murder for no good reason - indeed, you have one character who seemingly only exists to murder people with a sword, and another who literally murders a man in cold blood and then totally gets away with it and is presented as one of the good guys. The Federation appears to have no good qualities at all in general. It’s just a totally different show. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2020, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-treks-federation-dystopian/916924/38 "2020-08-03T14:57:46Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The Federation of “Star Trek Picard” looks much worse, … in that show you have lots and lots of murder for no good reason It seemed that in TOS murder was so rare it was notable. Ads all criminals could be rehabilitated. In fact, there were only 7(? been a while) totally irredeemable criminals. I guess that thinking didn’t last. Or the treatments were deemed unethical (maybe hey involved lobotomy-equivalents?). ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2020, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-treks-federation-dystopian/916924/39 "2020-08-03T15:50:29Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > > [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > > > Khan could have gone back as a prisoner and face trial. He was the one who chose a “habitable, although a bit savage, somewhat inhospitable” planet because, as Milton said, " Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven." > > McGiver (McIvers?) could have gone with Kahn or return to a Star Fleet court martial. It’s been a long time since I saw that episode, by it’s not clear to me why ANY of them had the option of being Jack Sparrowed on an island instead of dragged back to to San Francisco to face a military tribunal or whatever for trying to take over a starship. One thing I will mention is that actual global politics, culture, and technology have changed a lot over the 60 years Star Trek has been a thing. It’s not surprising that it should change significantly over the multiple generations of galactic history covered by the show. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2020, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-treks-federation-dystopian/916924/40 "2020-08-03T19:47:49Z")
> [@Kamino\_Neko](#): > > And Cisko’s father’s restaurant making unreplicated food from unreplicated ingredients is also treated as something unusual (but positive). And basically a hobby, which he could pursue thanks to the richness of the culture. But notice also how many of the DS9 characters are scornful of the Utopian Earth. As were the show runners, I think. They couldn’t stand to work in Roddenberry’s universe of a basically good Federation facing challenges from outside. It is why I, who watched TOS during its original run, have given up on Trek. If I want a dystopia I just have to read the newspaper. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2020, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-treks-federation-dystopian/916924/41 "2020-08-03T19:57:47Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > No, it isn’t dystopian. It’s a fair and free society with rules to protect freedoms. Well, unless you’re an Orion Slave Girl. Then you have to put out for all the Star Fleet officers that like to hang around them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-treks-federation-dystopian/916924.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-treks-federation-dystopian/916924.md?page=3)