# Star Wars A New Hope, Obiwan taking Luke on a suicide mission? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 27, 2011, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-a-new-hope-obiwan-taking-luke-on-a-suicide-mission/607559 "2011-12-27T20:41:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-a-new-hope-obiwan-taking-luke-on-a-suicide-mission/607559/61 "2012-01-04T05:24:14Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Thoughts? _Star Wars_ makes much more sense if you pretend the prequels don’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Harvey\_The\_Heavy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Harvey\_The\_Heavy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harvey_The_Heavy)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-a-new-hope-obiwan-taking-luke-on-a-suicide-mission/607559/62 "2012-01-04T05:34:36Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Whoah, where are you getting the idea that Han’s never heard of the Jedi? He doesnt believe in the Force, but that’s entirely different than not knowing about the Jedi. I don’t believe in Jesus, but I’ve still heard of the Catholic church. +1 Nowhere in my earlier post did I suggest that Han or anyone else in the time of ep4 didn’t know about the existence of the Jedi, just that their methods, such as use of the Force, weren’t common knowledge, even in the time of the Clone Wars. Just like the USSR, everyone knows it existed, but many still don’t know exactly what was going on there, even people old enough to have been alive at the time. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-a-new-hope-obiwan-taking-luke-on-a-suicide-mission/607559/63 "2012-01-04T06:07:24Z")
How would you have proof of jedi mind tricks exactly? Unless you were the “victim” and then others likely won’t believe you. The only witnesses to most jedi combat were clones and droids, all the general public sees is robed people wielding lightsabers and thats not exactly supernatural. Again they aren’t witnessing the combat so they won’t even find it funny they can swing around lightsabers without decapitating themselves. Han didn’t deny jedi could do mind tricks and other force powers anyway, he seemed to be more denying the force as factor in his own life. Much like saying you don’t believe in god controlling the universe and your life. I’m not even sure he was wrong, as seen in the OT a blaster is more efficient and useful offensively than a lightsaber 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![interface2x](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c0e974/32.png) [@interface2x](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/interface2x)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-a-new-hope-obiwan-taking-luke-on-a-suicide-mission/607559/64 "2012-01-04T14:29:26Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I referred to this, but let me address your point about Han being ten when “Revenge of the Sith” ends. Assuming that’s about his age, which I suppose it is, it’s just not possible that something that was as huge a deal as the Jedi order when Han Solo was ten years old would be unknown to him. Not to mention that Chewbacca was _with Yoda_ at a battle in that movie. Why didn’t he mention anything? I suppose Chewbacca could be the “Smith” name of Wookies, but that’s unlikely. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-a-new-hope-obiwan-taking-luke-on-a-suicide-mission/607559/65 "2012-01-04T14:35:22Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Whoah, where are you getting the idea that Han’s never heard of the Jedi? He doesnt believe in the Force, but that’s entirely different than not knowing about the Jedi. I don’t believe in Jesus, but I’ve still heard of the Catholic church. If the Catholic Church actually had priests as recently as 1991 who had rather spectacular magical powers and who led armies into battle across the globe as generals and commanders, you’d believe in that. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-a-new-hope-obiwan-taking-luke-on-a-suicide-mission/607559/66 "2012-01-04T14:43:41Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > If the Catholic Church actually had priests as recently as 1991 who had rather spectacular magical powers and who led armies into battle across the globe as generals and commanders, you’d believe in that. A better comparison is the Shaolin Monks. Everyone knows that Shaolin Monks are good fighters, but they’re way the hell over in a very rural part of China. What’s less easy to believe is that they can do shit like this: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/5xundlJz8qo/hqdefault.jpg "Mortal Kombat Shaolin Monks - Fatalities Liu Kang") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xundlJz8qo) ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-a-new-hope-obiwan-taking-luke-on-a-suicide-mission/607559/67 "2012-01-04T15:46:52Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > A better comparison is the Shaolin Monks. Everyone knows that Shaolin Monks are good fighters, but they’re way the hell over in a very rural part of China. Then that’s a poor comparison, because the Jedi had their HQ **right in the middle of the galaxy’s capital.** ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-a-new-hope-obiwan-taking-luke-on-a-suicide-mission/607559/68 "2012-01-04T16:02:19Z")
> [@dzeiger](#): > > But this isn’t just a multicultural society, this is an intergalactic society–and the best interstellar transmissions we saw were crappy, static-y black-and-white holograms that can’t even handle an asteroid field. > > It seems entirely plausible that even that technology was mostly limited to government/military use under the Republic (and certainly under the Empire), so someone on Corellia isn’t just going to be turning the video monitor to see a live correspondent with the day’s news from Coruscant. > > Sci-fi/Space Fantasy almost never really handles communications issues well, I don’t think it’s all that unreasonable to think that news travels more like it did in medieval Europe than it does now–and in that case the Jedi might be playing the part of the Knights Templar. Even if intersteller phone service is restricted to military or official use only, that doesn’t stop any old tramp frieghter from carrying news (disk, print, electronic data) and porn from port to port while it brings in it’s regular cargo. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-a-new-hope-obiwan-taking-luke-on-a-suicide-mission/607559/69 "2012-01-04T16:06:27Z")
As with every _Star Wars_ thread, I recommend reading The Secret Life of Star Wars to get a good background on how the story developed. If we include the prequels, we can retcon anything so we can ignore the idea of training as a youngling. I tend to ignore ESB because after Leigh Brackett died and Lucas got involved … well we have seen post-Star Wars what happens when Lucus wants to make things better. So let’s assume Darth is a name and not a title and Vader actually killed Anakin Skywalker and is not [spoiler alert] Luke’s father. The question is why Obi-Wan did not start training Luke sooner. First of all, remeber that Anakin wanted Luke to have his lightsaber when he was old enough (but if Anakin is Vader and he thinks the fetus is dead then how could then doesn’t this contadict ep. 3? :eek: ). Also, Uncle Owen made Kenobi a persona-non-grata in Luke’s life. It could be cultural morality or Kenobi’s personal morality but it seemed to overrule the idea that Obi-Wan train Luke as a Jedi. Plus I always got the idea that Obi-Wan felt he messed up with Darth and indirectly caused the death of the Jedi Order and helped the Empire so he was reticent about taking on a new pupil. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-a-new-hope-obiwan-taking-luke-on-a-suicide-mission/607559/70 "2012-01-04T16:14:18Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > There is too much of an age difference between MacGregor and Guiness. But MacGregor did a bang up job where every other actor (except McDiarmind, aka Palpatine) was lost under Lucas’ direction. Gary Oldman would have been able to carry it off. (Inspired by Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy) Because Lucus didn’t direct Ewan. Because it was important to pull off being a younger Obi-Wan, Ewan studied Guiness’ performance in Star Wars and adapted it into a younger version so I guess you could say his direction was a Guiness/MacGregor collaboration with Lucas no part of it. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-a-new-hope-obiwan-taking-luke-on-a-suicide-mission/607559/71 "2012-01-04T16:16:41Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Plus I always got the idea that Obi-Wan felt he messed up with Darth and indirectly caused the death of the Jedi Order and helped the Empire so he was reticent about taking on a new pupil. I don’t agree. Right after viewing the message from Leia embedded in R2, before they even knew Owen was killed by Imperial forces: > [@IMDB](#): > > Princess Leia: General Kenobi. Years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars. Now he begs you to help him in his struggle against the Empire. I regret that I am unable to convey my father’s request to you in person, but my ship has fallen under attack, and I’m afraid my mission to bring you to Alderaan has failed. I have placed information vital to the survival of the Rebellion into the memory systems of this R2 unit. My father will know how to retrieve it. You must see this droid safely delivered to him on Alderaan. This is our most desperate hour. Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi. You’re my only hope > > _pause_ > > Obi-Wan: [to Luke] You must learn the ways of the Force, if you’re to come with me to Alderaan. > > Luke: Alderaan? I’m not going to Alderaan, I’ve gotta get _home_, it’s late, I’m in for it as it is! > > Obi-Wan: I need your help, Luke. She needs your help. I’m getting too old for this sort of thing. > > Luke: Look, I can’t get involved. I’ve got work to do. It’s not that I like the Empire; I hate it, but there’s nothing I can do about it right now… It’s all such a long way from here. > > Obi-Wan: That’s your uncle talking. He sure changes his mind pretty fast. And he doesn’t even suggest getting Owen out of danger, assuming Ben knew the Empire would be trying to track down the “vital information” stored in the droid. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-a-new-hope-obiwan-taking-luke-on-a-suicide-mission/607559/72 "2012-01-04T16:25:07Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Also, Uncle Owen made Kenobi a persona-non-grata in Luke’s life. _“Owen Lars, right?”_ [waves hand] _“This isn’t the Kenobi you’re objecting to.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-a-new-hope-obiwan-taking-luke-on-a-suicide-mission/607559/73 "2012-01-04T17:03:39Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > I don’t agree. > > Right after viewing the message from Leia embedded in R2, before they even knew Owen was killed by Imperial forces: > > He sure changes his mind pretty fast. And he doesn’t even suggest getting Owen out of danger, assuming Ben knew the Empire would be trying to track down the “vital information” stored in the droid. 😃 I guess I didn’t make myself clear. During the 19 years Luke was growing up drinking blue milk, Obi-Wan was afraid he would turn Luke into another Darth. But like a true Jedi, when it hit the fan he balls up and does his job. But even in your quote, Obi doesn’t say he wants to train Luke. He _needs_ to train Luke because he is getting too old. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-a-new-hope-obiwan-taking-luke-on-a-suicide-mission/607559/74 "2012-01-04T17:07:58Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Then that’s a poor comparison, because the Jedi had their HQ **right in the middle of the galaxy’s capital.** We don’t know where the Jedi Temple is considering Corsucant is a planet-sized city. It could be anywhere on the planet and may not be anywhere near what’s considered “the center.” ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-a-new-hope-obiwan-taking-luke-on-a-suicide-mission/607559/75 "2012-01-04T17:18:01Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I guess I didn’t make myself clear. During the 19 years Luke was growing up drinking blue milk, Obi-Wan was afraid he would turn Luke into another Darth. But like a true Jedi, when it hit the fan he balls up and does his job. > But even in your quote, Obi doesn’t say he wants to train Luke. He _needs_ to train Luke because he is getting too old. Well, I wasn’t clear either. 🙂 I am only saying that I didn’t see any reluctance on Ben’s part. IMO, Alec Guiness doesn’t portray any kind of reluctance or hesitancy after viewing the message. He scratches his beard for two seconds, and tells Luke that he needs to go to Alderaan. Assuming Ben knew that Vader had wiped out the Jedi galaxy wide, who did Ben expect to train Luke when they get to Alderaan? I don’t even know if Ben knows if Yoda is still alive at this point. (He knows after he becomes a force ghost in episode 5.) True, he could be just “winging it” at this point, and trusting that The Force will provide. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-a-new-hope-obiwan-taking-luke-on-a-suicide-mission/607559/76 "2012-01-04T17:38:07Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > We don’t know where the Jedi Temple is considering Corsucant is a planet-sized city. It could be anywhere on the planet and may not be anywhere near what’s considered “the center.” I think we’re missing the greater point if you’re now questioning what street the Jedi HQ is on. They have incredibly close access to the Republic government and know Republic bigwigs on a personal basis. Working Jedi are used as Republic diplomats and agents. This is not some fringe monastery. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-a-new-hope-obiwan-taking-luke-on-a-suicide-mission/607559/77 "2012-01-04T18:02:43Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I think we’re missing the greater point if you’re now questioning what street the Jedi HQ is on. They have incredibly close access to the Republic government and know Republic bigwigs on a personal basis. Working Jedi are used as Republic diplomats and agents. This is not some fringe monastery. But to a kid on Correlia, it might be. That is the point with the 1000s of worlds explanation (which is included in _Star Wars_). ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-a-new-hope-obiwan-taking-luke-on-a-suicide-mission/607559/78 "2012-01-04T18:13:55Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Well, I wasn’t clear either. 🙂 I am only saying that I didn’t see any reluctance on Ben’s part. IMO, Alec Guiness doesn’t portray any kind of reluctance or hesitancy after viewing the message. He scratches his beard for two seconds, and tells Luke that he needs to go to Alderaan. The reluctancy was in the 19 years before Star Wars. Remember he has given up his identity as ObiWan Kenobi to go by the alias of Ben Kenobi. I totally see the thought process as: General Kenobi. [She’s addressing me as a Jedi] Years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars. [My past life as a Jedi] Now he begs you to help him in his struggle against the Empire. [A lifelong duty] I regret that I am unable to convey my father’s request to you in person, but my ship has fallen under attack, and I’m afraid my mission to bring you to Alderaan has failed. I have placed information vital to the survival of the Rebellion [The enemy of my enemy is my friend] into the memory systems of this R2 unit. My father will know how to retrieve it. You must see this droid safely delivered to him on Alderaan. This is our most desperate hour. Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi. You’re my only hope. [A Jedi gots ta do what a Jedi gots ta do] \ [I have a duty to perform] [But how? I’m like 90 and have been living in the Dune Sea for 20 years] [Time to do what I’ve been trying to avoid and train Skywalker the Younger] \ Whether intended by Lucas or not, I think the scene in Kenobi’ House can be read at a few levels. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-a-new-hope-obiwan-taking-luke-on-a-suicide-mission/607559/79 "2012-01-04T18:19:34Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > We don’t know where the Jedi Temple is considering Corsucant is a planet-sized city. It could be anywhere on the planet and may not be anywhere near what’s considered “the center.” I hear the pizza was always cold by the time the delivery guy figured out the address of the Jedi Temple. [Handwave] “You’re not going to expect a tip for this delivery…” ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-a-new-hope-obiwan-taking-luke-on-a-suicide-mission/607559/80 "2012-01-04T20:13:21Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > I hear the pizza was always cold by the time the delivery guy figured out the address of the Jedi Temple. > > [Handwave] “You’re not going to expect a tip for this delivery…” [yoda]Mmmm, yes. Rooted in the darkside, anchovies are.[/yoda] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-a-new-hope-obiwan-taking-luke-on-a-suicide-mission/607559.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-a-new-hope-obiwan-taking-luke-on-a-suicide-mission/607559.md?page=5)