# Star Wars Episode 1; The Phantom Menace... Ten Years Later **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 17, 2009, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-1-the-phantom-menace-ten-years-later/496759 "2009-05-17T16:50:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-1-the-phantom-menace-ten-years-later/496759/81 "2009-05-20T04:41:20Z")
Oh yeah, and the irony of this, at the end of a rant against popularity, it burns: > [@Blake](#): > > How about a film that someone else has actualy seen? ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-1-the-phantom-menace-ten-years-later/496759/82 "2009-05-20T05:22:53Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Uhhh, because I didn’t claim that at all. I’m having hard time following what you are claiming then. You claimed that box office gross is an indictor of popularity, or so it seems. Now you seem to be denying that was your claim. > [@](#): > > First of all, Star Wars _is_ in the top 100: it’s #3 - higher than all the prequels. Not sure what list you are using. I’m using the Wikipedia list. Not the most reliable source, but pretty good for these sorts of things. It lists Star Wars at number 26. > [@](#): > > Secondly, A Night at the Museum can’t sniff any of those movies you mentioned’s nuts when adjusted for inflation. Gone With the Wind is still the king of that and will never be dethroned. . So have you also adjusted for population size and ticket purchasing trends? Because you do realise that without doing those adjustments it’s a meaningless comparison, right? You do understand that just because more kids buy tickets now and tickets are cheaper and theatres are more abundant and there are more people a comparison adjusting for inflation without adjusting for demographics and trend is meaningless? Or as Wiki says “no film prior to 1977 appears in the list because inflation, population size and ticket purchasing trends are not considered”. > [@](#): > > And finally, I’m not saying there’s a direct correlation between quality and popularity, just that people would’ve flocked to see these movies in less than record-setting numbers if they were as bad as you’re saying they are. What is that based on? It seems perfectly circular. We know it was good because lots of people watched it. And we know that lots of people watched because it was good. So lots of people can’t watch a bad movie purely because of hype? Or because it’s a good movie to take the kids to that no adult would find to be good? I personally thought it was shit the first time I saw it, but I paid because of the hype. And I watched the next one because I figure it had to get better. I didn’t watch it because it was good. > [@Cisco](#): > > Oh yeah, and the irony of this, at the end of a rant against popularity, it burns: The only irony is that your post concerning irony contains no examples of irony. Dude I asked for an example of what you consider a failed movie that we had both seen to see how you define a failed movie. I have no idea TWTF you find ironic about that. I can only assume that you believe that any film that is popular is artistically successful. Fair enough. It sets a pretty low bar when you consider Big Brother to be good and succesful art. It certainly epxlins why you think that these movies are good art. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-1-the-phantom-menace-ten-years-later/496759/83 "2009-05-20T05:44:38Z")
If you [adjust for inflation](http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/adjusted.htm), Episode I comes in behind the original three films, and Episodes II & III don’t even make the Top 50. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-1-the-phantom-menace-ten-years-later/496759/84 "2009-05-20T06:28:42Z")
> [@ArchiveGuy](#): > > But then, we learn that Padme is actually Amidala’s real name! What head of state in their right mind would ever travel incognito and use their real first name? Is Padme the most common girl name on Naboo? Maybe, maybe not, but this completely unnecessary subterfuge subplot could have been handled any number of ways far less clumsily from any half-decent screenwriter. It’s a small point, but so glaringly conspicuous and completely representative of so many elements in the prequels–they’re perfectly conceived in Lucas’s brain, but are conveyed so ineptly and without forethought or adequate follow-through in execution, that they come across as distracting, contradictory, half-baked, or simply moronic. But isn’t exactly the same kind of mistake made in the OT when Luke is sent to his uncle and keeps his real surname . If you want to hide him from Vader and the emperor that would seem to be a spectacularly misguided move. I agree with everyone that Phantom Menace is a lousy film but I actually liked AOTC and especially ROTS ; both of them more than ROTJ. Most of the faults of the prequels, like bad acting and stilted dialogue, are present in ANH and ROTJ as well IMO. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-1-the-phantom-menace-ten-years-later/496759/85 "2009-05-20T06:37:43Z")
> [@Scissorjack](#): > > Right, because this backwater shithole planet doesn’t accept the standard galactic hard currency, Well, obviously there isn’t a standard galactic currency. Tatooine isn’t in the Republic, there’s no reason to assume they’d use the Republic’s money. Try and spend British money in a junk shop in Arkansas and see how far you get. > [@](#): > > and they don’t have currency exchanges. Maybe the currency exchange was on the other side of the planet, who cares, the point is the movie did explain why they needed money, their money wasn’t good with the guy who had the part they needed. Maybe they could’ve gotten money other ways than a pod race, so what? Of all the things to pick on the movie for this is small potatoes. > [@](#): > > It’s just clumsy Plot Logic that obviously only exists to shoehorn the already unneccessary podrace in there. Just like most of what happens in every movie ever. Things happen so they can set up other things the filmmaker wants to show. Why doesn’t Han land someplace else and check the Falcon for a tracking device instead of heading straight for the Rebel base after they realize they got away too easy? Just clumsy Plot Logic that obviously only exists to make the Death Star battle all or nothing for the Rebels? Or because that’s the movie? If you don’t like the movie, that’s great, but don’t fault the movie because of little niggling details like Qui Gon not having the right money when your real problem is you just didn’t like pod racing. If you didn’t like the pod race (and if you didn’t that’s fine), then no matter how they got there you still wouldn’t have liked it, and if you did like that part (and lots of people think it was the best part of the film) it’s not such a big deal that they only got there because Qui Gon didn’t go down to the local Bank of Tatooine and swap his credits in what would’ve been the boringest Star Wars scene ever. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-1-the-phantom-menace-ten-years-later/496759/86 "2009-05-20T06:49:59Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > Just like most of what happens in every movie ever. Things happen so they can set up other things the filmmaker wants to show. Why doesn’t Han land someplace else and check the Falcon for a tracking device instead of heading straight for the Rebel base after they realize they got away too easy? Just clumsy Plot Logic that obviously only exists to make the Death Star battle all or nothing for the Rebels? Or because that’s the movie? That comparison doesn’t work particularly well. One, Han being too cocky to believe he’s being tracks fits in with his established character. It’s not a smart move, but he’s not a character who always does smart things. The problem with the setup for the podrace is that is a dumb, illogical, and unethical thing to do for a character who is supposed to be smart, rational, and upstanding. > [@](#): > > If you don’t like the movie, that’s great, but don’t fault the movie because of little niggling details like Qui Gon not having the right money when your real problem is you just didn’t like pod racing. If you didn’t like the pod race (and if you didn’t that’s fine), then no matter how they got there you still wouldn’t have liked it, and if you did like that part (and lots of people think it was the best part of the film) it’s not such a big deal that they only got there because Qui Gon didn’t go down to the local Bank of Tatooine and swap his credits in what would’ve been the boringest Star Wars scene ever. The problem isn’t the pod race scene itself, which, by itself, is a decent action set piece. The problem is that it’s so clearly an action set piece, and not an organic part of the story. It destroys the films pacing, eating up all the momentum and tension they’d been able to build up with the escape from Naboo (and considering how well those scenes worked, they didn’t have much to spare). It steals the narrative focus from the films established characters, turning them into spectators instead of protagonists. And worse, it does so in favor of a character who is both underwritten and underacted, as compared to the films original leads. It’s an unnecessary, over-long, unnecessary scene, and it takes up the bulk of the second act, which should be the emotional and narrative heart of the movie. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-1-the-phantom-menace-ten-years-later/496759/87 "2009-05-20T07:27:30Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > Well, obviously there isn’t a standard galactic currency. Tatooine isn’t in the Republic, there’s no reason to assume they’d use the Republic’s money. Try and spend British money in a junk shop in Arkansas and see how far you get. Show up at a Bolivian junk shop with a briefcase full of $100 bills, and I can assure you you’ll be able to buy anything and everything. They may not give you a good deal, but believe me, they’ll take your money. Besides - ever heard of exchanging currencies? I find it hard to believe that not a single bank or money changer in all of Tatooine would be willing to accept he most commonly-used currency in the galaxy. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-1-the-phantom-menace-ten-years-later/496759/88 "2009-05-20T11:17:41Z")
The sudeen appearance of Republic currency would have alerted the authorities that some meddling Jedis or their lackeys had landed and were up to something. /fanwank ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-1-the-phantom-menace-ten-years-later/496759/89 "2009-05-20T14:10:33Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > I’m having hard time following what you are claiming then. You claimed that box office gross is an indictor of popularity, or so it seems. Now you seem to be denying that was your claim. > > Not sure what list you are using. I’m using the Wikipedia list. Not the most reliable source, but pretty good for these sorts of things. It lists Star Wars at number 26. > . So have you also adjusted for population size and ticket purchasing trends? Because you do realise that without doing those adjustments it’s a meaningless comparison, right? You do understand that just because more kids buy tickets now and tickets are cheaper and theatres are more abundant and there are more people a comparison adjusting for inflation without adjusting for demographics and trend is meaningless? > Or as Wiki says “no film prior to 1977 appears in the list because inflation, population size and ticket purchasing trends are not considered”. > What is that based on? It seems perfectly circular. We know it was good because lots of people watched it. And we know that lots of people watched because it was good. > So lots of people can’t watch a bad movie purely because of hype? Or because it’s a good movie to take the kids to that no adult would find to be good? > I personally thought it was shit the first time I saw it, but I paid because of the hype. And I watched the next one because I figure it had to get better. I didn’t watch it because it was good. > The only irony is that your post concerning irony contains no examples of irony. > Dude I asked for an example of what you consider a failed movie that we had both seen to see how you define a failed movie. I have no idea TWTF you find ironic about that. > > I can only assume that you believe that any film that is popular is artistically successful. Fair enough. It sets a pretty low bar when you consider Big Brother to be good and succesful art. It certainly epxlins why you think that these movies are good art. Dude, this is just bizarre. I’m gonna go ahead and walk away from this. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-1-the-phantom-menace-ten-years-later/496759/90 "2009-05-20T15:24:38Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > …it’s not such a big deal that they only got there because Qui Gon didn’t go down to the local Bank of Tatooine and swap his credits in what would’ve been the boringest Star Wars scene ever. Well, FWIW, I would take ten minutes of Qui Gon standing in line at the local branch of Bank of Tatooine (even with bad alien Muzak laid in) over ten minutes of Jar Jar’s jabbering, any day of the week. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-1-the-phantom-menace-ten-years-later/496759/91 "2009-05-20T16:28:39Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > The sudeen appearance of Republic currency would have alerted the authorities that some meddling Jedis or their lackeys had landed and were up to something. Or possibly that someone else from the Republic had landed. Or just somebody who had done business in or near the Republic at some point. ---
**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-1-the-phantom-menace-ten-years-later/496759/92 "2009-05-20T17:26:12Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > But one good actor dos not a movie make. Michael Caine was pretty good in movies ranging from "Killer bees to “Jaws 3”. Doesn’t mean those movies don’t suck. Nitpick: Jaws 4: The Revenge. Nitpick 2: No one was “pretty good” in that movie. ---
**Author:** ![Kokopilau](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Kokopilau](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kokopilau)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-1-the-phantom-menace-ten-years-later/496759/93 "2009-05-20T19:52:32Z")
> [@Max\_Torque](#): > > But Watto accepted the bet of Anakin’s pod versus Anakin’s freedom, so it would seem that the pod belonged to Anakin, free and clear, somehow. The whole “slavery” thing as depicted in the movie doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. I mean, they live in a relatively nice multi-room house away from Watto’s place, they own their own property… Qui-Gon lies and says it’s his, not Anakin’s, at Anakin’s suggestion (“Watto doesn’t know I’ve built it. You could make him think it was yours and get him to let me pilot it for you.”) And so, when first discussing betting on the pod race, Watto snarks that Anakin has no pod to race after wrecking out in the last race. Qui-Gon tells Watto that he’s won a pod, ‘the fastest ever built’, in a game of chance, and that Anakin can race that one. ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-1-the-phantom-menace-ten-years-later/496759/94 "2009-05-20T20:39:50Z")
> [@Kokopilau](#): > > Qui-Gon lies and says it’s his, not Anakin’s, at Anakin’s suggestion (“Watto doesn’t know I’ve built it. You could make him think it was yours and get him to let me pilot it for you.”) So he’s a liar as well as a cheat, and “He’s not here to free the slaves.” Would it not just be more ethical at this point just to shoplift the damn thing? ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-1-the-phantom-menace-ten-years-later/496759/95 "2009-05-20T21:42:24Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > I agree with everyone that Phantom Menace is a lousy film but I actually liked AOTC and especially ROTS ; both of them more than ROTJ. Most of the faults of the prequels, like bad acting and stilted dialogue, are present in ANH and ROTJ as well IMO. All of the problems present in The Phantom Menace are present in the original trilogy as well. Every single one of them. The issue is that George Lucas is a hack. There’s nothing wrong with being a hack. Edgar Allan Poe was a hack. Shakespeare was a hack. The difference is that, of course, the hack writers we remember and celebrate today are _good_ writers as well. George Lucas is not. But The Phantom Menace can be viewed more or less objectively–and the first trilogy simply cannot be. Nobody has nostalgic memories of TPM. Nobody thinks it shaped film making. Nobody marks its release as any sort of shift in the culture. Furthermore, the people who were kids when ANH was released are only going to have good memories of it because _that’s_ the level Lucas writes at. He’s like a particularly deranged and sociopathic child. When you’re 8 or 10 or 12, that shit is awesome. And it becomes lodged in your memory as awesome shit. Except, the entire series is nothing _but_ shit. The dialogue sucks in all the films. The acting is wretched in all the films. The plot line is boring and uninspired in all the films. My husband tells me that ROTJ is considered the best of the six–I don’t know. I just watched it a few weeks ago and it was exactly like sitting through AOTC–a massive waste of time and an exercise in tedium. It’s like saying that crabs is the best STD. I’ll believe you, but I’d rather not have any STD at all. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-1-the-phantom-menace-ten-years-later/496759/96 "2009-05-20T21:44:43Z")
> [@pepperlandgirl](#): > > The dialogue sucks in all the films. The acting is wretched in all the films. Except for Harrison Ford. The more I rewatch the movies, the more I become convinced he’s the reason they worked. Hell, I think he got more screen time in ESB than Hamill did, and that’s the best one of the three, right? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-1-the-phantom-menace-ten-years-later/496759/97 "2009-05-20T21:49:52Z")
Come on, pepperlandgirl. IIRC you’re a writer and you seriously have no appreciation for what Shakespeare did? You’re free to your opinion, but the vast majority of scholars, theatre-goers, and Shakespeare readers in the western world disagree with you, for what I think are very good reasons. And IMO Lucas is not a hack, either. I think he accomplished exactly what he wanted to accomplish with Star Wars: a trilogy of fun movies that look nice, and a trilogy of nice-looking movies that would’ve been fun if we weren’t so nostalgic for the first trilogy. At least Lucas’s hackiness is legitimately debatable, though. _Shakespeare?_ Really? ---
**Author:** ![Plynck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Plynck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plynck)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-1-the-phantom-menace-ten-years-later/496759/98 "2009-05-20T22:05:19Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > The politics of the Republic is a boring plot device! I’ll disagree with this. _Dune_ without politics is just _Tremors_. In fact, the politics was the only thing that got me to watch it a second time. And the second viewing clarified what was half-formed in my mind the first time I saw it, and continued to think for the next two movies: These prequels are the very embodiment of misplaced priorities and missed opportunities. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-1-the-phantom-menace-ten-years-later/496759/99 "2009-05-20T22:13:54Z")
> [@pepperlandgirl](#): > > But The Phantom Menace can be viewed more or less objectively–and the first trilogy simply cannot be. Nobody has nostalgic memories of TPM. Nobody thinks it shaped film making. Nobody marks its release as any sort of shift in the culture. Furthermore, the people who were kids when ANH was released are only going to have good memories of it because _that’s_ the level Lucas writes at. He’s like a particularly deranged and sociopathic child. When you’re 8 or 10 or 12, that shit is awesome. And it becomes lodged in your memory as awesome shit. This is a popular theory - that _Star Wars_ is well remembered because the people who are fans of it were kids when it came out. The problem is, when _Star Wars_ came out, it was a monster hit across all ages. _Adults_ were lining up to see it over and over. Critics raved over it. It was nominated for Best Picture. It wasn’t perceived as a kids movie when it was released, and it wasn’t just kids who made it the cultural phenomenon of the '70s. > [@](#): > > My husband tells me that ROTJ is considered the best of the six. Your husband is incorrect. Prior to the prequel trilogy, RotJ was widely considered the worst of the series. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-1-the-phantom-menace-ten-years-later/496759/100 "2009-05-20T23:21:04Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > This is a popular theory - that _Star Wars_ is well remembered because the people who are fans of it were kids when it came out. The problem is, when _Star Wars_ came out, it was a monster hit across all ages. _Adults_ were lining up to see it over and over. Critics raved over it. It was nominated for Best Picture. It wasn’t perceived as a kids movie when it was released, and it wasn’t just kids who made it the cultural phenomenon of the '70s. This is correct, except that IME - with both trilogies - it was the kids who really internalized it and “geeked out” about it (and again, I include myself.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-1-the-phantom-menace-ten-years-later/496759.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-1-the-phantom-menace-ten-years-later/496759.md?page=6)