# Star Wars Episode III. Revenge Of The Sith. Primer. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 23, 2005, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-iii-revenge-of-the-sith-primer/295827 "2005-03-23T02:42:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Algernon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a183cd/32.png) [@Algernon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algernon)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-iii-revenge-of-the-sith-primer/295827/21 "2005-03-24T13:58:53Z")
OK. I understand things a lot better now too. It all sort of makes sense when you guys explain it. Heck, I could figure out _Memento_ and _Eternal Sunshine…_, but I couldn’t figure out Episode II. Sheesh. (Sifo Diaz?? I have absolutely no recollection of that name, or even that character regardless of his name.) In my opinion, the collective confusion of many of us is an indicator of a crappy script. Until now I thought it was simply a crappy plot. Now I think the plot is OK, so that leaves the script (or the editting I suppose). Either way, Lucas is at fault for this. Thanks everyone for your explanations, and to you too **Chicago Faucet** for starting this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-iii-revenge-of-the-sith-primer/295827/22 "2005-03-24T17:25:42Z")
> [@](#): > > This is why I liked Episodes IV through VI. There was the Empire and there were the Rebels. Everything was fairly simple and straightforward. Eh, there were a lot of independants there, too. The remnants of the Jedi weren’t really allied with the Rebellion, just working to the same ends, and Jabba and Lando pretty much cared only about themselves, though they were willing to make deals with both sides. Heck, even Solo started off as an independant contractor, who was only working with the Rebellion for the money. Sifo Dyas was mentioned, but only briefly. When the Jedi are talking with the Clone-makers, the Clone-maker PR secretary says that the clone army was ordered by a Jedi named Sifo Dyas, whereupon Obi-Wan comments that he’s been dead for ten years. Which is about all we know about him, from the movies. ---
**Author:** ![Algernon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a183cd/32.png) [@Algernon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algernon)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-iii-revenge-of-the-sith-primer/295827/23 "2005-03-24T19:29:17Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Eh, there were a lot of independants there, too. The remnants of the Jedi weren’t really allied with the Rebellion, just working to the same ends, and Jabba and Lando pretty much cared only about themselves, though they were willing to make deals with both sides. (You know, I considered mentioning these independent characters, but I figured it’d _weaken_ my argument. 🙂 ) Of course you’re technically correct **Chronos**. I maintain though that the story arc of Empire vs Rebels was simple and straightforward, and the fact that characters like Lando and Jabba only cared about themselves was also simple and straightforward. In other words, I think that those Episodes had sufficient richness of plot without being unnecessarily obfuscating. ---
**Author:** ![Soapbox\_Monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Soapbox\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soapbox_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-iii-revenge-of-the-sith-primer/295827/24 "2005-03-25T00:09:05Z")
> [@Algernon](#): > > OK. I understand things a lot better now too. > > It all sort of makes sense when you guys explain it. > > Heck, I could figure out _Memento_ and _Eternal Sunshine…_, but I couldn’t figure out Episode II. Sheesh. (Sifo Diaz?? I have absolutely no recollection of that name, or even that character regardless of his name.) > > In my opinion, the collective confusion of many of us is an indicator of a crappy script. Until now I thought it was simply a crappy plot. Now I think the plot is OK, so that leaves the script (or the editting I suppose). Either way, Lucas is at fault for this. > > Thanks everyone for your explanations, and to you too **Chicago Faucet** for starting this thread. I think it’s actually pretty well done. The **big** events are pretty much only noticed if you are paying attention. The main action of the films end up being of lesser importance. _Main plot of Episode I:_ Palpatine strikes a deal with the Trade Federation to invade his homeworld so that he can stir up conflict in the Senate and gain power. But what we see are the “little people” who are stuck in the middle. The pawns of the much larger chess match. _Main plot of Episode II:_ Palpatine and his new ally Count Dooku play the galaxy against itself and create a clone army under a deceased Jedi’s name, giving Palpatine the force he will need to police the galaxy when he makes his big move. The fact that the Clone Wars will thin out the Jedi ranks is an extra bonus. Again, in this movie we follow the action of the pawns, who really have no control over what is going on. By the time they figure everything out in Episode III and try to take action, it will be far too late… ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-iii-revenge-of-the-sith-primer/295827/25 "2005-03-25T02:22:46Z")
I just want to thank everyone who contributed to this thread. I was thinking about asking for a quick primer on the events of Eps I and II since I fell asleep in Ep I during the interminable and pointless speeder-thing race little Darth Vader-to-be won and I skipped Ep II altogether. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-iii-revenge-of-the-sith-primer/295827/26 "2005-03-25T05:59:21Z")
> [@Soapbox Monkey](#): > > I think it’s actually pretty well done. The **big** events are pretty much only noticed if you are paying attention. The main action of the films end up being of lesser importance. > > _Main plot of Episode I:_ Palpatine strikes a deal with the Trade Federation to invade his homeworld so that he can stir up conflict in the Senate and gain power. > > But what we see are the “little people” who are stuck in the middle. The pawns of the much larger chess match. > > _Main plot of Episode II:_ Palpatine and his new ally Count Dooku play the galaxy against itself and create a clone army under a deceased Jedi’s name, giving Palpatine the force he will need to police the galaxy when he makes his big move. The fact that the Clone Wars will thin out the Jedi ranks is an extra bonus. > > Again, in this movie we follow the action of the pawns, who really have no control over what is going on. By the time they figure everything out in Episode III and try to take action, it will be far too late… Also wasn’t that point of naming the first movie **The Phantom Menace**? We see this whole story with Qui-Gon, Obi-Won, Anakin, etc., but the actual important story is the blockage and Palapatine working behind the scenes to get himself named Chancellor. Not only was Palpy the Phantom Menace, but the so was the important story arc. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-iii-revenge-of-the-sith-primer/295827/27 "2005-03-25T07:01:51Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Not only was Palpy the Phantom Menace, but the so was the important story arc. Erm-- Palpatine was the actual (and unseen) menace. The Trade Federation was the _phantom_ menace. (Why do I feel like such a dork, pointing this out?) ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-iii-revenge-of-the-sith-primer/295827/28 "2005-03-25T13:58:19Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > Erm-- Palpatine was the actual (and unseen) menace. The Trade Federation was the _phantom_ menace. Huh? “Phantom” generally implies “unseen”. Your first sentence shows why your second sentence is wrong. The Trade Federation is the VISIBLE menace. Palpatine is the hidden hand, the Phantom Menace that is threatening the peace. ---
**Author:** ![Draelin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce73a5/32.png) [@Draelin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Draelin)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-iii-revenge-of-the-sith-primer/295827/29 "2005-03-25T14:21:21Z")
> [@Soapbox Monkey](#): > > I think it’s actually pretty well done. The big events are pretty much only noticed if you are paying attention. The main action of the films end up being of lesser importance. Agreed. If you’re paying attention, after seeing _Phantom Menace_, you realize that the entire blockade and everything else was Palpatine’s diabolical plan to gain control of the entire Senate. Gungans, pod races, and even Jedi don’t really matter. And after seeing _Attack of the Clones_, one realizes that there’s a big fat war going on … _and the same man is in charge of both sides._ It amazed me how many people completely missed both of those points. But to be fair, while I am a fan of all things _Star Wars_, I’m perfectly aware that George Lucas can’t write his way out of a paper bag. For the love of all that’s holy, let someone _else_ write the dialogue!! ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-iii-revenge-of-the-sith-primer/295827/30 "2005-03-25T15:06:09Z")
> [@toadspittle](#): > > Huh? “Phantom” generally implies “unseen”. Your first sentence shows why your second sentence is wrong. The Trade Federation is the VISIBLE menace. Palpatine is the hidden hand, the Phantom Menace that is threatening the peace. Exactly. Phantom means unseen. Palpy was the Phantom Menace of the first movie. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-iii-revenge-of-the-sith-primer/295827/31 "2005-03-25T15:51:51Z")
I love you all, but I wonder what planet you are on. Phantom does _not_ mean unseen. A phantom is an allusion, an apparition, something you actually see but is not actually real. It is elusive, or even downright fake. The original contention that the Trade Federation is the phantom menace is unambiguously correct. Palpatine is the real menace, not the phantom menace. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-iii-revenge-of-the-sith-primer/295827/32 "2005-03-25T16:01:21Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Exactly. Phantom means unseen. Except that it [means just the opposite](http://www.rhymezone.com/r/rhyme.cgi?Word=phantom) – something that is apparent to sense, but illusory or unreal. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-iii-revenge-of-the-sith-primer/295827/33 "2005-03-25T16:20:31Z")
Sorry, **Maeglin** – opened this thread at the same time as one of the Schiavo pit threads (which is trucking along a _bit_ faster than this one) and didn’t see your last post. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-iii-revenge-of-the-sith-primer/295827/34 "2005-03-25T16:36:02Z")
No worries at all. I didn’t mean to steal your thunder or anything. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-iii-revenge-of-the-sith-primer/295827/35 "2005-03-25T16:58:01Z")
I won’t have the energy to get up a good sulk until after my second cup of coffee. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-iii-revenge-of-the-sith-primer/295827/36 "2005-03-25T19:41:41Z")
Can anyone explain why Sidious has pointy vampire teeth and Palpatine has normal human teeth? Does Palpatine wear some sort of dental appliance? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-iii-revenge-of-the-sith-primer/295827/37 "2005-03-25T20:28:18Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > Can anyone explain why Sidious has pointy vampire teeth and Palpatine has normal human teeth? Does Palpatine wear some sort of dental appliance? We’re going to [find out](http://www.theforce.net/episode3/jtf/palpatine.asp), apparently. > [@TheForce.net](#): > > Ep3 will explain how and why Palpatine looks the way he does in ROTJ and why he did not look like that in Ep1 & 2. - [Pablo Hidalgo/Lucas Online] […] > > We’ve never really seen the Emperor without his hood on, and now for Episode III we’re going to see what he looks like." - [Dave Elsey (Creature Shop Creative Supervisor)] Either it’s part of a disguise, or he undergoes some sort of an _eeeevil_ transformation as his powers increase and he becomes Emperor. I’m guessing transformation. > [@TheForce.net](#): > > Darth Sidious is a human, in case there was any doubt. - PH ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-iii-revenge-of-the-sith-primer/295827/38 "2005-03-25T20:48:22Z")
> [@Kizarvexius](#): > > So by creating a war out of nothing, Palpatine gets an army under his command – an army that will take orders from him without question, unlike those meddling goody-two-shoes Jedi. Plus he gets to destroy the Trade Federation and others with enough power to be potential thorns in his side when he makes his move. Not only an army - the Clone Wars allows Palpy to get money for a nifty space navy through the Federation Council, giving him even more power. Why the Federation didn’t have one is beyond me - maybe they figured the Jedis could have sneaked onto any enemy ships and blown them up? If the standard design had the power generators unprotected on the flight deck, not a bad assumption. BTW, don’t forget that Palpy orders up plans for a big battle station from the Simplicity pattern store too. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-iii-revenge-of-the-sith-primer/295827/39 "2005-03-25T21:15:33Z")
Problem is, we’ve seen Sidious and Palpatine’s mouths look different during the same time periods. Take the new Clone Wars eps. Maybe it’s a mistake, but their mouths are radically different, even shown during what can only be, at most, days apart. If it’s going to fit in with the EU, then the reason is obvious why his appearance changes over time: EU spoilers: Palpatine is so twisted with the dark side that he continually and quickly burns out old bodies and has to take on new ones, perhaps clones. But that still doesn’t explain why Palpatine and Sidious have such different dentistry. And the EU between clone wars and ep3 also makes clear that: EU books spoilers: Sidious needs to get off Coruscant because the Jedi can track him there somehow. Having Grevious kidnap Palpatine somehow accomplishes this end. Did I say somehow? It’s so obvious that it’s stupid: Sidious is Palpatine. ---
**Author:** ![Winston\_Bongo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a9adbd/32.png) [@Winston\_Bongo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Winston_Bongo)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-iii-revenge-of-the-sith-primer/295827/40 "2005-03-25T21:18:36Z")
Yes, it always seemed to me that neglecting to have some kind of army was a pretty dumbassed move for an entity as old and apparently wise as the Republic. I mean, I know they were devoted to peace and all, but even the _Star Trek_’s touchy-feely Federation is armed to the teeth. One question still bugs me: who paid for the clones? Surely Dooku didn’t finance a buttload of cloned soldiers by selling his original Jedi Knight Membership Badge and Decoder Ring on eBay? ("L@@OK! MINT C-9 condition! Free shipping for Trade Fed members, AWESOME addition to yor jedi collection NO RESERVE!!!) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-iii-revenge-of-the-sith-primer/295827.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-iii-revenge-of-the-sith-primer/295827.md?page=3)