# Star Wars Episode VII anticipation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 23, 2013, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-vii-anticipation-thread/666936 "2013-08-23T02:11:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 34
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-vii-anticipation-thread/666936/661 "2015-10-21T14:25:16Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > Another dumb thing: Kylo Ren (Vader 2.0) says to the melted Vader mask, “I will finish what you started.” Wouldn’t that be said to the Emperor? Vader turned to the light at the end, after all. The only person who knows that is Luke, and maybe he’s not saying. Given that, who would you rather emulate: the wizened old politician (who no-one knew was a Sith), or the cool black-masked warrior? You have to remember that the characters haven’t seen the movies. ---
**Author:** ![tonyfop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@tonyfop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tonyfop)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-vii-anticipation-thread/666936/662 "2015-10-21T14:43:59Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > Yeah, this is ridiculous. It’s a flaw in the OT, though a small one, since one is asked to imagine for oneself why the Jedi would seem so distant and be mostly forgotten only 25 years or so (Luke’s age) after their demise. It’s not totally unbelievable, since the Empire seems powerful but in tenuous control of a fairly sparsely populated Galaxy. > > But you add in the information from the prequels, and no. The Jedi were everywhere with huge influence in a seemingly robust and highly populated Republic. Forgetting the Jedi would be like us forgetting a big event from the early 90s. > > And now, forgetting the Dark Side and the Jedi (that helped defeat the Empire in a major way) is just dumb. I don’t think this is a godwinizing of the thread, but here goes. There are people on this planet, and governments, which actively deny that the holocaust happened. I have uncles who were there at the liberation of the camps, yet there are other people who are told that these a fairy tales, made up to make them look bad. I always got the impression that the Jedi may have been common on Coruscant, and in the major core worlds, but they never had any reason to wield immense power out on the rim. People on Tatooine at the time of ANH may have heard of Jedi, but having never seen one they were classified as fantasy or myth. Now, 35 years later, at the time of Ep VII, the imperial governors of the planets that remain under control of whatever is left of the Empire, would actively discourage talk about Jedi. If stories got out that one person wielding the force could bring down the empire, their tenuous control may be broken. So the official line is that Jedi never existed, they are a fairy tale and nothing more. ---
**Author:** ![Uosdwis\_R.Dewoh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Uosdwis\_R.Dewoh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uosdwis_R.Dewoh)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-vii-anticipation-thread/666936/663 "2015-10-21T16:48:05Z")
There’s a trillion people on Coruscant alone. In the prequels we barely see more than a handful of Jedi. In one scene we see Yoda training maybe a dozen Jedi kids. For the Jedi to have any kind of noticeable presence in the Republic he should be training hundreds of millions at a time. ---
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-vii-anticipation-thread/666936/664 "2015-10-21T16:55:32Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > But you add in the information from the prequels, and no. The Jedi were everywhere with huge influence in a seemingly robust and highly populated Republic. Forgetting the Jedi would be like us forgetting a big event from the early 90s. The prequels are set from the point of view of the Jedi, so of course the feature prominently. That doesn’t mean that they loom large in the lives of average Republic citizens. If the movie was about the NSA, you would see a lot of NSA agents and NSA people influencing events, but that doesn’t change the fact that for most people, the NSA is some vague branch of the government that does some kind of spying. And that’s only if they live the US or western countries. > [@](#): > > And now, forgetting the Dark Side and the Jedi (that helped defeat the Empire in a major way) is just dumb. There were only a handful of characters who understood that there were actual Jedi and Sith involved in the defeat of the Empire. I figure that most of the galaxy sees the “light side of the force” and “dark side of the force” as a vague mysticism. Admiral Motti, before he was force choked, was basically criticizing Vader for being all “church-y”. He wasn’t expecting that he actually had the power to force choke people any more that you expect your overtly-religious coworker to actually get his guardian angel to attack you. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-vii-anticipation-thread/666936/665 "2015-10-21T17:07:10Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The only person who knows that is Luke, and maybe he’s not saying. Given that, who would you rather emulate: the wizened old politician (who no-one knew was a Sith), or the cool black-masked warrior? > > You have to remember that the characters haven’t seen the movies. If by finish what he started the Breen rip off masked dude means “bring balance to the force”… I swear I am going to burn the cinema down:D . ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-vii-anticipation-thread/666936/666 "2015-10-21T17:29:41Z")
> [@Uosdwis\_R.Dewoh](#): > > There’s a trillion people on Coruscant alone. In the prequels we barely see more than a handful of Jedi. In one scene we see Yoda training maybe a dozen Jedi kids. For the Jedi to have any kind of noticeable presence in the Republic he should be training hundreds of millions at a time. Wookiepedia suggests both that about 1% of Jedi survived the Purge, and that about one hundred Jedi survived the Purge. If both of those numbers are right, the Jedi order had about 10,000 active Jedi just before the fall of the Old Republic. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-vii-anticipation-thread/666936/667 "2015-10-21T18:33:07Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > If by finish what he started the Breen rip off masked dude means “bring balance to the force”… I swear I am going to burn the cinema down:D . The appearance of the Breen from Star Trek is very obviously ripped off from Leia’s disguise as the bounty hunger Boushh in Return of the Jedi. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-vii-anticipation-thread/666936/668 "2015-10-21T19:28:18Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > Lol, yep. A bit derpy-looking. He looks like a pizza delivery driver. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-vii-anticipation-thread/666936/669 "2015-10-21T20:00:33Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > He looks like a pizza delivery driver. Haha, and a skeevy one at that. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-vii-anticipation-thread/666936/670 "2015-10-21T20:04:29Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > Haha, and a skeevy one at that. Your lack of weed disturbs me. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-vii-anticipation-thread/666936/671 "2015-10-21T20:13:43Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > Hmmm, thanks. That concerns me. Lucas did downright deplorable dialog but his stories usually had much to offer. Now I’m curious about what the original story had for episodes 7-9. Lucas originally planned nine episodes, but after completing episode IV, he decided to compress the rest into V and VI. So the original trilogy completed his story. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-vii-anticipation-thread/666936/672 "2015-10-21T20:24:10Z")
> [@tonyfop](#): > > Now, 35 years later, at the time of Ep VII, the imperial governors of the planets that remain under control of whatever is left of the Empire, would actively discourage talk about Jedi. If stories got out that one person wielding the force could bring down the empire, their tenuous control may be broken. So the official line is that Jedi never existed, they are a fairy tale and nothing more. Some of these explanations make perfect sense, but at the same time they end up trashing the story of the OT. RotJ ends in triumph. We are led to believe that things are going to be good now for the galaxy. There is no sign of worrying about a rump Empire, etc. Of course, the Extended Universe had to keep things going, but at least Luke rebuilt the Jedi order, and they became a powerful force for good. Of course, the Force isn’t forgotten, anything like that. If we look at what appears to be the story with Ep. VII, there never was any real triumph of the rebels, there is no Jedi order at all, and we are right back where we started in Ep. IV with the Jedi and whatnot forgotten and evil in control. Pretty depressing storyline, really. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-vii-anticipation-thread/666936/673 "2015-10-21T20:26:24Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The only person who knows that is Luke, and maybe he’s not saying. Given that, who would you rather emulate: the wizened old politician (who no-one knew was a Sith), or the cool black-masked warrior? > > You have to remember that the characters haven’t seen the movies. If he knows about Vader, then he knows about the Emperor. Vader, insofar as he was known at all, was known as the henchman of the Emperor. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-vii-anticipation-thread/666936/674 "2015-10-21T20:28:48Z")
> [@Uosdwis\_R.Dewoh](#): > > There’s a trillion people on Coruscant alone. In the prequels we barely see more than a handful of Jedi. In one scene we see Yoda training maybe a dozen Jedi kids. For the Jedi to have any kind of noticeable presence in the Republic he should be training hundreds of millions at a time. I agree with your logic, and the world of the prequels doesn’t make a lot of sense. But the Jedi _are_ shown as far-ranging, powerful, and well-known. They are the heroes of the clone wars, they are sent to negotiate with the powerful Trade Federation, and so on. I think based on what we see in the prequels and shows like Clone Wars, speculating that the Jedi would not have been well known is totally implausible. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-vii-anticipation-thread/666936/675 "2015-10-21T20:31:54Z")
> [@leahcim](#): > > The prequels are set from the point of view of the Jedi, so of course the feature prominently. That doesn’t mean that they loom large in the lives of average Republic citizens. > > If the movie was about the NSA, you would see a lot of NSA agents and NSA people influencing events, but that doesn’t change the fact that for most people, the NSA is some vague branch of the government that does some kind of spying. And that’s only if they live the US or western countries. Bad example. The NSA is intended to be secret. The Jedi were the open and prestigious knights of the Republic. If a plant was in the Republic and the citizens understood that fact, then they would have known about the Jedi. > [@](#): > > There were only a handful of characters who understood that there were actual Jedi and Sith involved in the defeat of the Empire. That’s correct, because the Jedi are shown as being forgotten in Ep. IV. I don’t think that makes sense when the prequels are thrown in, however. > [@](#): > > I figure that most of the galaxy sees the “light side of the force” and “dark side of the force” as a vague mysticism. Admiral Motti, before he was force choked, was basically criticizing Vader for being all “church-y”. He wasn’t expecting that he actually had the power to force choke people any more that you expect your overtly-religious coworker to actually get his guardian angel to attack you. Again, the setting of the OT isn’t compatible with the prequels. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-vii-anticipation-thread/666936/676 "2015-10-21T20:33:00Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Wookiepedia suggests both that about 1% of Jedi survived the Purge, and that about one hundred Jedi survived the Purge. If both of those numbers are right, the Jedi order had about 10,000 active Jedi just before the fall of the Old Republic. I agree that that would be a totally inadequate number for the prequels’ setting. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-vii-anticipation-thread/666936/677 "2015-10-21T20:39:27Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > If he knows about Vader, then he knows about the Emperor. Vader, insofar as he was known at all, was known as the henchman of the Emperor. So what? That doesn’t mean that the Emperor was a force user too, it only means that one of them obeyed him. As far as the public was concerned, he was just Senator Palpatine of Naboo; whereas Vader was a great general and warrior, a man with a mysterious past, an open force user who was famous for hunting down the remaining Jedi. I can see any new Dark Side adherents being drawn to him and not to the old politician. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-vii-anticipation-thread/666936/678 "2015-10-21T20:44:39Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > I agree with your logic, and the world of the prequels doesn’t make a lot of sense. But the Jedi _are_ shown as far-ranging, powerful, and well-known. They are the heroes of the clone wars, they are sent to negotiate with the powerful Trade Federation, and so on. I think based on what we see in the prequels and shows like Clone Wars, speculating that the Jedi would not have been well known is totally implausible. Maybe the public knew that a semi-governmental organization called the Jedi Knights existed, but didn’t believe they had any “magical” powers. After all, everyone knows the Force isn’t real. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2015, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-vii-anticipation-thread/666936/679 "2015-10-22T00:45:00Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > So what? That doesn’t mean that the Emperor was a force user too, it only means that one of them obeyed him. As far as the public was concerned, he was just Senator Palpatine of Naboo; whereas Vader was a great general and warrior, a man with a mysterious past, an open force user who was famous for hunting down the remaining Jedi. I can see any new Dark Side adherents being drawn to him and not to the old politician. General Motti doesn’t seem to know Vader’s past very well in Ep. IV; he doesn’t even know that the Force is real. And that’s a high-ranking guy in the Empire. So why would Kylo know that about Vader? He could–but I think if he knew that much, then he would also know about the Emperor’s true nature as well at that point. If he doesn’t, well, then he’s kinda dumb, isn’t he? He ends up being someone not actually steeped in accurate lore of the Dark Side but just half-assing it instead. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2015, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-vii-anticipation-thread/666936/680 "2015-10-22T00:47:36Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Maybe the public knew that a semi-governmental organization called the Jedi Knights existed, but didn’t believe they had any “magical” powers. After all, everyone knows the Force isn’t real. I think that’s plausible with the OT but not with the prequels. We get in a weird situation arguing this stuff because the OT was made first, then the prequels come in with stuff that really doesn’t make sense vis-a-vis what was in the OT. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-vii-anticipation-thread/666936.md?page=33) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-episode-vii-anticipation-thread/666936.md?page=35)