# Star Wars isn't that good, is it? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 19, 2003, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-isnt-that-good-is-it/202662 "2003-09-19T19:42:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2003, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-isnt-that-good-is-it/202662/61 "2003-09-21T02:54:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duderdude2 \* > \*\*Furthermore, Unwashed Brain appeared to be speaking for everybody when he provided his statement, (“Say what you will, 2001 will always be considered a dull movie”), thus I do not feel Muldoon’s Squishiness was entirely unjust in his actions. \*\* I don’t think that having a different opinion on the entirely subjective merits of a movie is grounds for personal insults. 2001 is one of my favorite movies, but just because someone else doesn’t like it, that doesn’t mean they’ve got short attention spans or defective imaginations. It just means they like different stuff than I do. Besides which, it’d be nice to be able to discuss the merits of a work of art without someone turning it into a pissing match. I’d rather hear **Muldoon** discuss what he feels are the merits of 2001, and contrast that with what **Mr. Sarcasticus** feels are its flaws. The later creates an interesting debate. The former just turns the SDMB into another UseNet. ---
**Author:** ![unwashed\_brain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a9adbd/32.png) [@unwashed\_brain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unwashed_brain)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2003, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-isnt-that-good-is-it/202662/62 "2003-09-21T03:27:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duderdude2 \* > \*\*Furthermore, Unwashed Brain appeared to be speaking for everybody when he provided his statement, (“Say what you will, 2001 will always be considered a dull movie”), thus I do not feel Muldoon’s Squishiness was entirely unjust in his actions. \*\* For the record, **MrSarcasticus** said the movie was dull, not me. You really should get those wireless keyboard batteries changed ASAP. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Duderdude2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/cdc98d/32.png) [@Duderdude2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duderdude2)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2003, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-isnt-that-good-is-it/202662/63 "2003-09-21T04:43:22Z")
Haha, sorry unwashed brain. All these random s/ns mess with me head. ---
**Author:** ![Duderdude2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/cdc98d/32.png) [@Duderdude2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duderdude2)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2003, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-isnt-that-good-is-it/202662/64 "2003-09-21T04:45:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by unwashed brain \* > \*\*It’s more like I am attacking (what I feel are) a flawed set of assumptions than defending an individual. > > That’s about as far as I want to take my arguments outside of The Pit. > > \ \*\* That’s fair enough, and I realized this after I wrote the very statements you quoted (since they were essentially what I protested - the line is thin between defending your beliefs or another individual). ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2003, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-isnt-that-good-is-it/202662/65 "2003-09-21T04:56:41Z")
I never heard anyone say they were bored by the first two SW movies, certainly. Then there’s that quote from Andrew: “I’m bored. Episode 1 bored.” ---
**Author:** ![rmbnxs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9e5f3/32.png) [@rmbnxs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rmbnxs)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2003, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-isnt-that-good-is-it/202662/66 "2003-09-21T05:12:21Z")
> [@](#): > > …bright shiny noises… Huh? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2003, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-isnt-that-good-is-it/202662/67 "2003-10-04T22:18:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > \*\*Hamill LOVES it; it was the high point of his career, and his life. The rest of them went on to bigger and better things. \*\* What, exactly, did Carrie Fisher go on to beyond crackwhoredom? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2003, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-isnt-that-good-is-it/202662/68 "2003-10-04T23:49:59Z")
She’s a successful writer. ---
**Author:** ![VernWinterbottom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c67d28/32.png) [@VernWinterbottom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VernWinterbottom)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2003, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-isnt-that-good-is-it/202662/69 "2003-10-05T03:14:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Murcielago \* > \*\*I think Han Solo was a very important character, as he was a hook into the movie for the audience. He was the one observing all the surrounding activity with a WTF? attitude which gave us a break from the Jedi mythology. That kind of character is sorely lacking in Eps. 1 & 2. \*\* Very simply, there would have been \*\*no{/B] Star Wars _trilogy_, nor an Indiana Jones trilogy, without Harrison Ford. ---
**Author:** ![JonScribe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3be4f8/32.png) [@JonScribe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonScribe)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2003, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-isnt-that-good-is-it/202662/70 "2003-10-05T04:03:27Z")
Best line of the entire series: “You rebel scum.” ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2003, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-isnt-that-good-is-it/202662/71 "2003-10-05T10:23:06Z")
For the record, I also felt that 2001 was very uninteresting. It was a half-hour episode of _The Twilight Zone_ stretched out to make it seem “deep”. ---
**Author:** ![Kiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Kiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiger)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2003, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-isnt-that-good-is-it/202662/72 "2003-10-05T11:58:26Z")
I was playing Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic the other day and realized that the game has much better acting then any of the movies. Really. ---
**Author:** ![lt180ml](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/90db22/32.png) [@lt180ml](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lt180ml)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2003, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-isnt-that-good-is-it/202662/73 "2003-10-05T17:26:27Z")
I’m not a film expert, so acting and special effects aren’t my province. But one thing that sets Star Wars apart is that Lucas did go out of his way to create a real environment for the films. Before Star Wars, as has already been pointed out, all SF movies were either shiny-new like Star Trek was (or attempted to be) or post apocalypse, like Planet of the Apes. I believe Lucas referred to it as the ‘used universe’ concept, since he wanted to give the viewer the impression that vehicles etc in the movies had been owned and used by real people in the same way that most of us who own cars own cars that are several years old. In other words, for the first time in SF, it was ok if the landspeeder was a little dusty looking. Second, John William’s score to ANH tops any other original mainstrean movie score I’ve heard. The only film that even comes close to the original three SW soundtracks is Space Odyssey: 2001, which of course is way better because they used the original Richard Strauss for the opening instead of plagiarising it. Seriously, those of you who think John Williams is omnipotent need to check out, just as an example, Mars Bringer of War from The Planets by Gustav Holst. It’s exactly the same as one of the passages from the opening of ANH. I mean, exactly. Down to the last note. Probably it’s even in the same key. Holst was first by more than half a century. After defending the old movies, I think criticizing the new ones is appropriate. The acting and FX might be better, but the new ones lack all the conviction and energy that the old ones had. The plots also conflict with things we’ve heard from Lucas and others for the past twenty years in the books serieses. Even hard-core fans now have no idea where Boba Fett is from. (Yes, at one point we did think we knew his original name and what planet he was from. I think it’s in Tales of the Bounty hunters?) Finally, I think the Special Edition sucked most of the life out of ANH. There’s no way even Greedo could aim that badly. Say hi to Trogdor for me. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2003, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-isnt-that-good-is-it/202662/74 "2003-10-05T17:41:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dutchboy208 \* > \*\*What, exactly, did Carrie Fisher go on to beyond crackwhoredom? \*\* Blues Brothers, man. Blues Brothers! ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2003, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-isnt-that-good-is-it/202662/75 "2003-10-05T18:15:18Z")
It’s a space fairy tale. It has all the sophistication of a Beginning Reader “Look Mommy I Can Read It Myself” rendition of a Brothers Grimm story. And also the magic. By “real” adult science-fiction (even _movie_ science-fiction) standards, umm, yeah – reducing a galaxy-wide conflict to no more major characters than you could count on your fingers (and those not generals or strategists, just incidental action figures) and a couple of small miltary events involving no more than one or two planets? So what? ---
**Author:** ![Duderdude2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/cdc98d/32.png) [@Duderdude2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duderdude2)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2003, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-isnt-that-good-is-it/202662/76 "2003-10-05T18:24:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SPOOFE \* > \*\*For the record, I also felt that 2001 was very uninteresting. It was a half-hour episode of _The Twilight Zone_ stretched out to make it seem “deep”. \*\* Despite it having virtually nothing in common with Twilight Zone. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2003, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-isnt-that-good-is-it/202662/77 "2003-10-06T02:54:40Z")
> [@](#): > > Seriously, those of you who think John Williams is omnipotent need to check out, just as an example, Mars Bringer of War from The Planets by Gustav Holst. It’s exactly the same as one of the passages from the opening of ANH. I mean, exactly. Down to the last note. Probably it’s even in the same key. Holst was first by more than half a century. Could you be a little more specific, please? I’m passing familiar with the _Star Wars_ soundtrack, and I could probably hum the entirety of _The Planets_ from memory, and I can’t think of any passage from the former that could be mistaken for the latter. Similar in tone, sure, but one can hardly copyright a tone. And I’ll concede that _2001_ had very good effects, but not having seen either movie recently, I’ll decline to say which one is better. But in any event, the effects in _Star Wars_ are still in the upper eschelon of movie special effects, and better than those in the prequels or Special Bastardizations. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2003, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-isnt-that-good-is-it/202662/78 "2003-10-06T12:10:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by AHunter3 \* > \*\*…reducing a galaxy-wide conflict to no more major characters than you could count on your fingers …and a couple of small miltary events involving no more than one or two planets? > > So what? \*\* Sounds like you’re talking about Frank Herbert’s _Dune_. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2003, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-isnt-that-good-is-it/202662/79 "2003-10-06T12:17:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chronos \* > \*\*Could you be a little more specific, please? I’m passing familiar with the _Star Wars_ soundtrack, and I could probably hum the entirety of _The Planets_ from memory, and I can’t think of any passage from the former that could be mistaken for the latter. Similar in tone, sure, but one can hardly copyright a tone. > \*\* Perhaps he’s confusing the Star Wars main theme with the theme from the movie “King’s Row” written by Eric Wolfgang Korngold in 1942. It (Star Wars) is an obvious rippoff of Mr. Korngold’s piece. I’ve fooled people with it at movie parties. Recently I’ve come across the liner notes for the Special Edition soundtrack to Star Wars in which John Williams now calls his theme an “homage” to the music of the old movie themes…yeah, right. Still love his music, though. ---
**Author:** ![lt180ml](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/90db22/32.png) [@lt180ml](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lt180ml)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2003, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-isnt-that-good-is-it/202662/80 "2003-10-06T12:56:55Z")
For those of you blessed enough to own recordings of both the ANH soundtrack and The Planets, conduct a little experiment in the privacy of your own homes. Listen to track three of the Special Edition soundtrack, Imperial Attack. Note the horn solo at approximately one minute seventeen seconds into the track. Now listen to Mars, Bringer of War, from the planets. It’s eerily similar–many Star Wars fans will listen to the Holst and think they’re hearing the the Williams score right up until the trumpet fanfare after the horn solo at two minutes which is the ancestor of the solo in the soundtrack. May I cite in defense of my point: “Interestingly enough, today’s master of extraterrestrial music, John Williams, has borrowed freely from The Planets in his film scores, most notably in his depiction of the Empire forces in Star Wars, which echoes the sinister martial rhythm heard at the beginning of Mars, the Bringer of War.” –Ted Libbey in the National Public Radio Guide to Building a Classical CD Collection, p. 92. Workman Publishing, New York. There’s nothing wrong with Williams doing this, but we need to be aware that it’s not the original. Handel, to name one, copied entire arias other people had written for use in his own oratorios. Only in the twentieth century has copyright become a serious issue in music. However, I do have a lot more respect for a movie like Space Odyssey: 2001 where the director chose to use the original music, rather than rewriting it to suit the circumstances. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-isnt-that-good-is-it/202662.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-isnt-that-good-is-it/202662.md?page=5)