# Star Wars: The entire Jedi Council were traitors. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 29, 2009, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-entire-jedi-council-were-traitors/498058 "2009-05-29T18:23:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-entire-jedi-council-were-traitors/498058/21 "2009-05-29T21:35:47Z")
“Only a Sith deals in absolutes!” Only George Lucas can write a line like that with a straight face. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-entire-jedi-council-were-traitors/498058/22 "2009-05-29T21:38:40Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Right, I with you 110%. > > I’m only saying that it seems to be a mistaken notion that Jedi are like priests, in that they can’t have sex. That’s all. > > Not allowing marriage (with some exceptions – see Ki Adi Mundi), among other things, is screwed up. Plus, they don’t allow exclusive relationships. It’s more like promiscuity is actually _encouraged_. Bad idea, especially in a line of work like being a Jedi. Oh, I know all that. I just wanted to make it clearer that I knew Jedi were allowed to have meaningless relationships with three-breasted hookers (or two-dicked gigolos), but not to bond emotionally with the women they loved. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-entire-jedi-council-were-traitors/498058/23 "2009-05-29T21:41:20Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > It’s forbidding marriage that’s bad. Allowing sex won’t make up for it. [Yoda disagrees.](http://www.shortpacked.com/d/20050523.html) ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-entire-jedi-council-were-traitors/498058/24 "2009-05-29T22:52:10Z")
I somewhat wondered if Lucas was taking a swipe at things he didn’t like: maybe Catholicism, or Republicans, or something. Either way, he did it badly. The Church’s rules against marriage are both practical and philosophical, but not absolute (which is why former Anglicans get in, and Deacons can be married, and we have Holy Orders which are celibate but not priests, etc.) I like the interpretation thaqt Yoda has defined the Jedi. A thousand years ago, it was not this way, but Yoda is the ultimate rules-man. He only allows enough edi that he can personally have a hand in their training, arranges everything to suit himself, and indoctrinates everyone in his views of the Jedi code. And that view may well be justified, but can’t encompass everything for everyone. Moreover, while I have no problem with grownups making the choice to live a life without sexual relations or marriage (or for that matter, taking Vows of Poverty), the Jedi take in children and give them exactly one kind of life. In this sense, the Dark Side of the Force has brought imbalance, but only after Yoda stripped the galaxy of its defenders, and the Republic was already going down the tubes. In a weird way, Palpatine was the man who re-started civilization. I’ve though about writing a story of the young Palpatine, captured and made into a tool of evil, who swears to destroy both Jedi _and_ Sith and rebuild the Republic, thus leaving his later actions somewhat ambiguous. ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-entire-jedi-council-were-traitors/498058/25 "2009-05-29T23:04:11Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Not allowing marriage (with some exceptions – see Ki Adi Mundi), among other things, is screwed up. Plus, they don’t allow exclusive relationships. It’s more like promiscuity is actually _encouraged_. Bad idea, especially in a line of work like being a Jedi. Especially if the force runs in the family. Preventing offspring would eventually be a breeding plan to eliminate force-sensitivity in the galaxy. Raising force-sensitive children with guiding Jedi parents seems to make more sense to me. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-entire-jedi-council-were-traitors/498058/26 "2009-05-30T00:21:17Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > What Lucas was shooting for, how the Jedi use the term “balance” is kinda like your car alignment being in balance. If it is out of balance, you get worse performance - uneven wear on tires, reduced tire life, and poor handling. Extend the metaphor to The Force, and you get a universe out of balance having more evil, less harmony, more conflict, more tension. Putting the Force in balance would ease the tension, reduce animosity, and lead to a harmonious Golden Age. If the Republic wasn’t IN a ‘Golden Age’ in _The Phantom Menace_ I don’t know what it would take. Yoda said to Luke in _The Empire Strikes Back_ that the Dark Side isn’t stronger, if it isn’t, how could the only two Sith in existence pull the wool over the eyes of every Jedi in the galaxy without the help of the Council? Stupid nothing, they were in on it. There is nothing evil about a hawk killing a mouse or a bear fishing for salmon. The Jedi, in tune with the force, would believe in sacrifice for the sake of an ideal (clearly shown with the marriage thing). ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-entire-jedi-council-were-traitors/498058/27 "2009-05-30T00:25:45Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Yoda said to Luke in _The Empire Strikes Back_ that the Dark Side isn’t stronger, if it isn’t, how could the only two Sith in existence pull the wool over the eyes of every Jedi in the galaxy Well, evil will triumph… because good is dumb. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-entire-jedi-council-were-traitors/498058/28 "2009-05-30T00:30:11Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, evil will triumph… because good is dumb. I’m saying Yoda and Mace were more pragmatic than ‘good’. ---
**Author:** ![Reverse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@Reverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reverse)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-entire-jedi-council-were-traitors/498058/29 "2009-05-30T00:30:51Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Yoda said to Luke in _The Empire Strikes Back_ that the Dark Side isn’t stronger Yoda was wrong about a lot of things. ---
**Author:** ![magnusblitz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@magnusblitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magnusblitz)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-entire-jedi-council-were-traitors/498058/30 "2009-05-30T00:49:40Z")
The way I understand it… GEORGE LUCAS VERSION: Balance is what **Irishman** analogized to, basically, balance = good. Anakin didn’t bring balance to the Force directly at the end of Episode 3, he arguably only did it by either a) helping birth Luke and Leia and/or b) throwing the Emperor into a pit. SENSIBLE FANBOY VERSION: What **Kenobi 65** said, in that “Anakin will bring balance to the force” was a true prophecy, but misunderstood by the Jedi council. Balance does indeed mean balance between the “light” and “dark” sides, which was arguably accomplished by the end of Episode 3, where we have two light siders (Yoda and Obi-Wan) and two dark siders (Palpatine and Vader). (And yes, I realize this does get screwed up by having all the other EU guys still alive at the time). I personally prefer the latter, especially given how the Force has been treated in some of the EU materials. Consider the two sides of the force not as “light and dark”, which implies good and bad, but more like passive and aggressive. The two may tend to run good and bad, but can be wielded for either end. Just look at how the Old Republic Jedi council’s Puritan-style rules ended up self-destructing in their face, or how guys like Kyle Katarn made good use of the “dark side.” ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-entire-jedi-council-were-traitors/498058/31 "2009-05-30T01:21:50Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Not allowing marriage (with some exceptions – see Ki Adi Mundi), among other things, is screwed up. Plus, they don’t allow exclusive relationships. It’s more like promiscuity is actually _encouraged_. Bad idea, especially in a line of work like being a Jedi. Not if Force-sensitivity is hereditary. > [@](#): > > “Only a Sith deals in absolutes!” > > Only George Lucas can write a line like that with a straight face. > Reply With Quote Why’s it so bad? It showed the lack of self-awareness that the Jedi were indulging in. > [@](#): > > I’m saying Yoda and Mace were more pragmatic than ‘good’. Nah. If they were pragmatic they would have shanked Palpatine years earlier. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-entire-jedi-council-were-traitors/498058/32 "2009-05-30T01:32:53Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > It was assumed (at least by me) that when Qui-gon Jin told the council he found the person mentioned in the ‘one who would bring balance to the force’ prophecy the Council considered having a new champion for their cause, but were only worried that if it was indeed him he just wasn’t ready. > > I now think otherwise. > > During the Old Republic the Jedi Order was primarily responsible for bringing order, justice and peace to the galaxy and except for a few independents on the Outer Rim and issues with a rogue Trade Federation in league with a bunch of anthropomorphic cockroaches they were by and large incredibly successful. The Senate brought democracy and enlightened rule to practically the entire universe. To bring balance would be in fact to add disorder, injustice and war. Mace and Yoda surly understood and sympathized with the ebb and flow of nature and to borrow a D&D term would be considered to have a True Neutral alignment. So they allowed this child to grow up, trained him, gave bullshit ‘hard to see the future is’ answers when confronted with the dire warnings of the Republics impending doom and all this with the full knowledge that this kid would contribute to the slaughter and subjugation of most of the universe including the Jedi Order itself. As I saw it, they didn’t have a ‘True Neutral’ alignment. While they were on the side of the law, they were lawful good, and then they became neutral good. That was the entire point of ‘bringing balance to the force’. Most people assume that bringing balance would be balancing it in favor of the light. But if the Jedi were the forces of the light, then it was actually inbalanced in favor of the light, and he brought the balance back by helping the dark side reestablish itself. People so often assume that ‘balance’ will work in Good’s favor, but not if Good is the beneficiary of the imbalance. Uggh: Upon further reading I see that a lot of people are making the same point I am making. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-entire-jedi-council-were-traitors/498058/33 "2009-05-30T01:33:36Z")
How 'bout this: With planetary weather, it is said to be in balance when there are no unusual forces acting upon it. Global warming (with an unusual influx of greenhouse gases) is an example of the weather “out of balance” from some previous baseline. With hundreds of Jedi (and an unknown number of Sith) running around tapping into the force, the trained Force users themselves are driving the Force out of balance. To bring the Force closer/into balance, get rid of these users (either “good” and “bad” doesn’t matter). Anakin presumadely kills bunches of Jedi, and disrupts their recruiting and training pipeline, thus bringing the Force closer to a “natural” balance, similar to the weather example (get rid of the Humans, and any AGW there is goes away). ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-entire-jedi-council-were-traitors/498058/34 "2009-05-30T05:16:44Z")
I really don’t hold with the fanboy arguments that the Dark side is really just "misunderstood. Misunderstood, my _arse_. They just want an excuse for their favorite characters to run around with laserswords _and_ using Dark Force Lightning. It doesn’t take a genius to notice that every character who uses it routinely winds up… not doing so hot. Even Mace Windu, who at best only touched it on the outer fringes, was a jerk. Frankly, this fanboyism (and yes, I know crappy novelists stuck it in as Eu canon. The EU isn’t exactly brimming with top-notch writers, either) basically shits all over the very heart of the series: the battle of good and evil. If you don’t have that, you may as well throw Star Wars away. The Light and Dark sides may be similar in the sense of what they are in the abstract, but they could not be more different in practice. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-entire-jedi-council-were-traitors/498058/35 "2009-05-30T08:59:18Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > The Jedi were simply morons. This. Well, they were badly written. But in universe this makes them morons. Mace Windu should have known better than to kill the Emperor in front of Anakin. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-entire-jedi-council-were-traitors/498058/36 "2009-05-30T10:17:31Z")
**Sitnam** said: > [@](#): > > If the Republic wasn’t IN a ‘Golden Age’ in _The Phantom Menace_ I don’t know what it would take. At the beginning of _The Phantom Menace_, we have a Republican Senate getting bogged down in bureacracy to the point it cannot function, a Trade Federation that is running a blockade on some outer worlds (at least Naboo), and reference to a growing faction of resistance. Okay, I don’t remember exactly, but everything is not roses and kittens, there is tension in the air and disharmony to go around. Now the Republic is certainly a Golden Age as compared to the later to come Empire, but at the time we witness the [del]search for the Messiah[/del] start of the story, the grand era of the Republic is starting to wane. Thus, the Jedi Council’s concern over the Force being out of balance and needing to fine-tune it. > [@](#): > > Yoda said to Luke in _The Empire Strikes Back_ that the Dark Side isn’t stronger, if it isn’t, how could the only two Sith in existence pull the wool over the eyes of every Jedi in the galaxy without the help of the Council? Just because the Dark side isn’t stronger doesn’t mean it is _weaker_. Besides, it’s a lot easier to hide 2 Sith in a universe than 2 Million Sith, no? There are a lot fewer of them, and a lot more places to lose them. Arguably there are more Sith than just 2. Apparently Darth Sidious was cultivating Anakin even while he had Count Dooku under him, and then there was Darth Maul at the beginning - where was Dooku then? Oh, that’s right, he was originally a Jedi. So did Sidious not turn Dooku until Maul was dead? Eh, anyway, the “only two” business is crap. > [@](#): > > Stupid nothing, they were in on it. There is nothing evil about a hawk killing a mouse or a bear fishing for salmon. The Jedi, in tune with the force, would believe in sacrifice for the sake of an ideal (clearly shown with the marriage thing). I dispute this. It is as **smiling bandit** says, Lucas wrote this as the epic battle between Good and Evil. The light side of the Force is all about defense, peace, harmony, justice. That’s why Yoda doesn’t create blue lightning even though he can handle it - that would be an offensive attack. Same reason Yoda catches the heavy objects Dooku throws, but doesn’t try to hit Dooku with anything himself. Admittedly, there is some fuzzy area when striking with a lightsaber, but since it is an “elegant weapon”, and it is a personal, up close weapon, it is more in keeping with the Jedi philosophy. Besides, nobody says you have to let yourself be killed, and self-defense can be extended to lethal force. (Incidentally, this has just helped me answer a question I’ve had regarding Luke’s interaction with the rancor. Giving the beast an anyuerism would have been an aggressive use of the Force, and thus Dark, whereas guiding a rock to hit a button is much less so. YMMV.) Also, good and evil do not apply to non-moral agents. Hawks, mice (or moose 😉 ), bear, and fish are not sentient and thus not moral agents, whereas humans and other sentients (Yoda and all the other alien “people”) are moral agents. Morality applies to the actions of those able to comprehend. While there is no moral value in a hawk killing a mouse to eat, there certainly is moral value in Jedi deciding whether a non-specified number of citizens have to die in order to accomplish a particular goal. Now, there may be a moral justification for allowing things to occur in certain ways, but it is still a moral issue. And frankly, Lucas isn’t that good of a writer. If he wanted to convey the Jedi sacrificing for the sake of an ideal, he would have explicitly shown that - e.g. Yoda lecturing Mace on the value of sacrifice and the needs of the whole of society outweighing the needs of any particular members, even the Jedi themselves. (Except that would sound like ripping off Star Trek, so he’d have to come up with some other bs.) **magnusblitz** said: > [@](#): > > I personally prefer the latter, especially given how the Force has been treated in some of the EU materials. Consider the two sides of the force not as “light and dark”, which implies good and bad, but more like passive and aggressive. The two may tend to run good and bad, but can be wielded for either end. Just look at how the Old Republic Jedi council’s Puritan-style rules ended up self-destructing in their face, or how guys like Kyle Katarn made good use of the “dark side.” Well, I know nothing about the Extended Universe - if it ain’t in the three movies, it ain’t canon. (Okay, 6 movies. Grrr.) Not even counting Zahn’s followup stories. That said, I’ll still pontificate. Seems like a lot of redefining is going on. I have to go back to the movies. Both Yoda and the Emperor agree, the path to the Dark side runs from fear and hatred and anger - the darker emotions. The Sith see those as strengths, but clearly we’re meant to judge them otherwise. So now we get to the speculation part. What is the blue lightning? How does one conjure it? Yes, it is a manipulation of the Force, but how is it accomplished? I suggest that it is generated through accessing those emotions and feeding them, giving in to them and letting them build until they tie one directly to the universe. Whereas levitation, etc, can be accessed through peace and relaxation and concentration, the lightning is an aggressive act and takes aggressive emotion. So the act of wielding blue lightning is the act of embracing hatred, rage, fear, bigotry, etc. The more you do it, the more you slide down the dark path until there is no turning back. That is why Luke is cautioned from starting down the path at all. The more you give in to the feelings, the harder it is to pull back and control them. So even though Yoda has the power to absorb the blue lightning from Count Dooku without being injured, he can do that via peace and relaxation - he is dissipating and smoothing the Force energy, not collecting and projecting it. Defense is light, attack is dark. Yoda has the power to create blue lightning, but chooses not to because the method of doing so is via the dark side, and would over time make it harder for him to resist those emotions, until the emotions take over. And that goes back to the comment by **Sitnam** , the Dark side isn’t stronger than the Light side, but the Light side does not avail itself of some of the tools of the dark side. Yoda is powerful enough to withstand blue lightning directly, whereas doesn’t Mace have to use his lightsaber to deflect Palpatine’s lightning? Being a strong Jedi is to philosophically choose only the light side, and restrict yourself to those actions and emotions, but within that side one can still be powerful enough to dissipate any Dark Force thrown at him. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-entire-jedi-council-were-traitors/498058/37 "2009-05-30T12:55:10Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > But order isn’t a moral construct and what the Republic represents above all is order. “Join me. With our combined strength, we can end this destructive conflict and bring \*\*order \*\*to the galaxy” Which Republic figure said that, now? Order in itself is not necessarily a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-entire-jedi-council-were-traitors/498058/38 "2009-05-30T15:25:43Z")
Going back to what Irishman said, note that Yoda could use the Force to throw things at people, but not to lightning them or reach out and snap their spines, too. And while others criticized it, one thing I was pleased with was that Anakin started using the Dark side, started revelling in it, and was quickly willing to kill children. I felt that very well implied just how easy it was to fall to the Dark side - under the right (wrong) circumstances, you had to either completely block it off or it would control you. That also brought home somethig that Yoda said in the OT, that the Dark side would forever dominate those who started down it. Yes, he was wrong, but we also see that he was not just spouting nonsense. For whatever reason, it appears that Force energies are not easily used against living objects. We see Jedi pushing themselves but not levitating, whereas it was easy to levitate a Droid. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-entire-jedi-council-were-traitors/498058/39 "2009-05-30T15:33:33Z")
_Balance to the Force_? Jeez, I need to get my ears cleaned. I always thought Anakin was supposed to bring [Palance](http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001588/) to the Force. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-entire-jedi-council-were-traitors/498058/40 "2009-05-30T22:54:19Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > Mace Windu should have known better than to kill the Emperor in front of Anakin. How so? He didn’t realize the extent of the former’s influence over Anakin. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-entire-jedi-council-were-traitors/498058.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-entire-jedi-council-were-traitors/498058.md?page=3)