# Star Wars: The Force Awakens - Seen It (Assume Spoilers Within) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 16, 2015, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645 "2015-12-16T23:16:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/261 "2015-12-20T08:22:53Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > So what you’re saying is that Kylo Ren is J.J. Abrams? I was actually going to say something along those lines, but in a more positive way. I think he emulated what he knew and tried to fix what he saw was broken, but in the end it wasn’t quite as good as the predecessor. He has done that before with _Star Trek_ and even in _Super 8_ to an extent. There are worse ways it could’ve gone, as we well know. I look forward to Episode VIII’s entirely new direction. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/262 "2015-12-20T08:57:59Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > You’d think that, by now, the Empire/First Order would be bankrupt. How many times can you build a moon-to-planet sized death weapon (full of other ships as well, no less) and have it get immediately destroyed? That’s not even considering the massive loss of personnel including all the specialty positions. Ha, that’s a great point. > [@coremelt](#): > > Except that the last two times they built a death star it was destroyed in the exactly the same way, and they made exactly the same mistake. Also why are the Rebellion / Resistance still a ragged band of scrappy under dogs? Shouldn’t they be officially allied with the Republic and have a military alliance with them? It doesn’t make sense, except in the meta-sense of “we needed to hit the reset button”. > [@Grumman](#): > > So what you’re saying is that Kylo Ren is J.J. Abrams? Oh snap! We do indeed need a “like” upvote button for brilliant quips like those. > [@GuanoLad](#): > > I was actually going to say something along those lines, but in a more positive way. I think he emulated what he knew and tried to fix what he saw was broken, but in the end it wasn’t quite as good as the predecessor. He has done that before with _Star Trek_ and even in _Super 8_ to an extent. > > There are worse ways it could’ve gone, as we well know. I look forward to Episode VIII’s entirely new direction. I’m not optimistic about that new direction, but if I hear that it is indeed something new and fresh, I’ll reconsider my decision to stop blindly feeding this branded box office juggernaut. What do you mean about _Super 8_, though? What is its predecessor? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/263 "2015-12-20T09:03:43Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > What do you mean about _Super 8_, though? What is its predecessor? Basically every film Steven Speilberg made. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/264 "2015-12-20T09:05:05Z")
Ah. (ETA: Well, presumably not _Schindler’s List_.) ---
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/265 "2015-12-20T09:11:59Z")
Ford is 73, so theres no guarantee there will be another opportunity to kill him off; from what I hear he didn’t even want to to Empire and that was 30 years ago, so I imagine he took fuck you money to take this role under the agreement it would be his last time. ---
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/266 "2015-12-20T09:13:38Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > What was the speculation? There was speculation among Star Wars geeks on an Urban Legend level that he turned Sith. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/267 "2015-12-20T09:53:49Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > Alas, Disney can’t cash in on old stories, so away they go. This is, I believe, completely wrong. Except for distribution of the first six films, which are still owned by Fox, Disney owns all Star Wars properties outright, EU stuff included. And they’re still selling a bunch of it, under the _Star Wars Legends_ brand. [Timothy Zahn’s Star Wars books aren’t going to be missing from store shelves anytime soon.](http://www.barnesandnoble.com/p/star-wars-thrawn-trilogy-1-timothy-zahn/1102150772/2694188579014?st=PLA&sid=BNB_DRS_Marketplace+Shopping+greatbookprices_00000000&2sid=Google_&sourceId=PLGoP23992&k_clickid=3x23992) Disney took the EU out of canon because most of it wasn’t very good, and they didn’t want their own products to be constrained by this enormous morass of continuity. The stuff in there that was good, will be retained and recycled. And it’s not like that stuff’s position in the canon wasn’t precarious enough before Disney bought them. Hell, Zahn’s stuff hasn’t been in canon for thirteen years, now, ever since _Attack of the Clones_ came out. You can’t blame Disney for that one. The old EU stuff still exists. It’s going to continue to be published as long as people will buy it. If enough the Legends brand retains enough of its popularity, they might even publish more material in that continuity. Lucas had the sort of emotional investment in the films that would keep him from doing obvious money makers, like releasing the original, non-special editions on DVD. Disney has no such sentimentality - if there’s a dollar to be made, they will go after it. All decanonizing the EU did was free Disney to pick and choose from the catalogue the parts they like, without having to deal with the bullshit. They can bring back the witches of Dathomir if they want, without having to implicitly keep drek like _The Courtship of Princess Leia_ in continuity, just because that was the book that introduced them. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/268 "2015-12-20T09:56:16Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > What do you mean about _Super 8_, though? What is its predecessor? > [@Miller](#): > > Basically every film Steven Speilberg made. Yeah, Abrams was deliberately trying for the _ET_, _Gremlins_, and _Goonies_\* 80s style of “kids save the neighbourhood” that Spielberg pioneered. \*_He didn’t direct Goonies or Gremlins, but he produced them and had a very hands-on participation in their production._ ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/269 "2015-12-20T11:28:38Z")
> [@Bruce\_Wayne](#): > > The lightsaber was the same one Anakin used in EP III. When he tried to flip over Obi Wan on Mustafar and got both legs and his one remaining biological arm cut off by Kenobi. Obi Wan left Anakin on the banks of the lava flow but took the lightsaber with him. Kenobi kept the lightsaber with him until EP IV at which point he gave it to Luke. Luke lost the light saber when his hand got cut off by Vader in EP V during their first duel. Somehow Maz Kanata got a hold of it after that Someone must’ve found it on Bespin > [@Jragon](#): > > So what you’re saying is that Rey will lose it by getting her hand cut off. > [@Bruce\_Wayne](#): > > No, not at all. I was just trying to clear up who the lightsaber belonged to. It belonged to both Anakin and Luke. > [@Jragon](#): > > It was a joke Maybe you THOUGHT you were making a joke, but I wouldn’t be surprised if she DOES lose that lightsaber via amputation. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/270 "2015-12-20T11:46:03Z")
Wait, someone “found” a light sabre on a gas giant? How does that work? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![iLemming](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90db22/32.png) [@iLemming](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iLemming)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/271 "2015-12-20T11:57:30Z")
Dunno what this was… but it wasn’t a Star Wars film. It had the SW iconography, the patented names and props… but it was little more than an exercise in fan service and playing it safe. ‘Generation ADD’ might have liked it (what don’t they like? :rolleyes:). But if the early feedback from so called ‘original trilogy fans’ is anything to go by, _The Force Awakens_ will go down in infamy. (The characters) Rey - Mary Sue in god mode. Can do everything and anything. Force training to acquire skills, you say? Phewy! to that antiquated, pahllocentric mode of progression! Supergirl can do as she pleases, when she pleases! Girl power! 😃 Finn – I was sceptical of all the a furore surrounding the purportedly shoehorned, ‘affirmative action’ nature of Boyega’s casting. But after seeing the film, I do have to say that, if anything, the character re-enforces the stereotypes his presence was there to debunk. A coward. A lecher. A buffoon… A literal ‘foibles of Solo and Jar Jar Binks hybrid’. But he got the girl in the end, so all is forgiven… :rolleyes: Kylo – What an embarrassment. Is the Vader gene pool really _this_ polluted, that it spawns one angsty, petulant, emo nitwit after the other?! Why were none of these traits ever even hinted at in the OT? Could they have not at least cast a more imposing figure than the asymmetrical beanstalk, Adam Driver? Why did he take his mask off? Why are the only prerequisites for casting Vader lineage the actor’s height and a mullet?! :dubious: Solo – Not at his best. But compared to the parade of YA B-listers, Ford was worth the ridiculous £23 million Disney threw at him (…relatively speaking). Fisher – Frail and craggy. The years have been cruel indeed to Carrie. Hamill – Nice green screen cameo! lol Narrative – _Star Wars Episode VII: An Old Hope – Bigger and More Bad-ass!_ Script – Sand is course and rough and, frankly, I don’t like it! Dialogue – Meesa steepa ins the doo-doo… _again!_ What it did for the SW mythology – ♪♫ _A-b-s-o-l-u-t-e-l-y nuffin! Say it again, yeah…!_ ♪♫ I thought VII came after VI, not after IV, with a decimal point preceding it…? Seems Jar Jar Abrams and his plagiaristic ways will not be denied. If it’s good enough to reheat, it’s good enough to serve to the drooling masses! **5** /10 ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/272 "2015-12-20T11:57:36Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Wait, someone “found” a light sabre on a gas giant? How does that work? 😕 Who ever said it fell out the bottom of Cloud City? It could have easily been sucked into some intake. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/273 "2015-12-20T12:09:35Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Who ever said it fell out the bottom of Cloud City? It could have easily been sucked into some intake. Good point–would make a lot more sense. I was reacting to “Someone must’ve found it on Bespin”, quoted upthread. I am no expert on gas giants, but I’m not even sure that preposition (“on”) has any application to them. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/274 "2015-12-20T12:22:30Z")
Nearly 300 posts, lots of discussion about J. J. Abrams, but nobody has mentioned lens flare yet. Are there any conclusions I can draw from those observations? ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/275 "2015-12-20T12:28:58Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Nearly 300 posts, lots of discussion about J. J. Abrams, but nobody has mentioned lens flare yet. > > Are there any conclusions I can draw from those observations? The lens flares in Star Trek represented the clean technological future. Star Wars is neither clean, nor our future. No lens flares. Well, there are light emitting weapons and that does occasionally throw up a flare or two (and interactive lighting, which is pretty cool) but that’s the extent of it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/276 "2015-12-20T13:52:52Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > And yet, because they exist and were “canon” for so long, people like myself will compare the new stories to the ones we’re familiar with. If this were an Expanded Universe book it would be somewhere around Darksaber and The Crystal Star. It simply suffers in comparison to the stories that already existed that would have made for some great sequel material. > > Alas, Disney can’t cash in on old stories, so away they go. But here I am comparing this movie to Heir to the Empire and saying that it wasn’t as good. This just feels like a kick to the teeth of long-time dedicated fans. Not that Lucas wouldn’t have done it himself, though. His changes to the original trilogy were already signs that he would do anything for a buck. > > Like I said, maybe I’ll reevaluate later. Right now, though, that’s what I think. Sorry to hear that. I read and enjoyed many of the EU books too, and I’m glad they are doing a different story. I like it when canon is rebooted or whatever, when well done, since it means I don’t know what will happen next. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/277 "2015-12-20T14:32:48Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > There is no meaningful similarity between Thrawn and Snoke that I can see. One is an alien from a previously unheard of race who takes control of the remnants of the Empire after Palpatine’s death and attempts to crush the Republic. The other is an alien from a previously unheard of race who takes control of the remnants of the Empire after Palpatine’s death and attempts to crush the Republic. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/278 "2015-12-20T14:47:11Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > One is an alien from a previously unheard of race who takes control of the remnants of the Empire after Palpatine’s death and attempts to crush the Republic. > > The other is an alien from a previously unheard of race who takes control of the remnants of the Empire after Palpatine’s death and attempts to crush the Republic. We don’t know from VII that he’s from a previously unheard of race. And even accepting that, these are not meaningful similarities. Meaningful similarities would need to involve at least some depiction of Snoke as almost supernaturally clever. Wouldn’t necessarily have to be so direct as defeating enemies by examining their cultural artifacts, but would need to be something like that. Short of that, you just have two bad guy bosses–not a meaningful similarity. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/279 "2015-12-20T16:19:14Z")
I’d say Thrawn is less “almost supernaturally clever” than “really clever, and good at selling himself as being even more clever than that.” He was blindsided repeatedly over the course of the series - at least twice as the result of “unknown unknowns” and three times as a result of his own character flaws biting him in the ass, but he was good at using the tools at his disposal to pull off flashy victories without showing how he did it, and I think his “examining their cultural artifacts” schtick could be part of that. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/280 "2015-12-20T16:34:31Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > Not that Lucas wouldn’t have done it himself, though. His changes to the original trilogy were already signs that he would do anything for a buck. I’m generally all for cynicism, but… I think there’s very strong evidence that George Lucas was NOT, in general, motivated in his life purely by a desire for money. Namely, the fact that for fourteen (?) years, he sat on the most valuable intellectual property in the history of the world and did nothing with it. Any time between Return of the Jedi and the prequels, he could have sold the rights to make more SW movies, or just a single SW movie, to any of a dozen different studies, for a RIDICULOUS amount of money. (Or, of course, made such movies himself.) And he chose not to. Whatever the faults of the prequel trilogy, and they were many, it’s hard to see how they can be solely blamed on George Lucas being greedy. Two excellent actors like Natalie Portman and Hayden Christensen didn’t have laughably bad on-screen romantic chemistry because somehow that was going to sell more toys… And for that matter, trying not to pick on you here, but you seem upset at the idea that Disney is trying to make as much money as possible. Well, of course they are. They’re a corporation. At the same time, clearly the most money they can possibly make is to make SW movies that are beloved by as much of the population as possible, so they can keep milking this cash cow into perpetuity. Granted it’s a teeny bit more complicated than that, as maybe they make more money off of kids than grownups due to merchandising and stuff, but it is clearly directly in Disney’s interest to make a movie that as many people as possible enjoy… and isn’t that what we, as fans, want them to be doing? (Also, for what it’s worth, I found Thrawn to be a comically uninteresting and unbelievable character.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645.md?page=15)