# Star Wars: The Force Awakens - Seen It (Assume Spoilers Within) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 16, 2015, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645 "2015-12-16T23:16:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/301 "2015-12-20T23:19:12Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Kylo Ren is not a Sith name. And Kylo Ren is not a Sith. “Sith” isn’t a generic term for any Force-sensitive person who follows the Dark Side; it refers to a specific idealogy, originating from the ancient Sith species that dwelt on Korriban tens of thousands of years ago and leant the name to the Dark Side Force-sensitives that were cast out of Republic space 7000 years before the events of the original trilogy. (In the old EU, anyway; we shall have to see how much of that backstory is part of the new EU.) > [@](#): > > Why isn’t Kylo Ren a Darth something? And Snoke too, why is he Supreme Leader instead of Darth Snoke? Snoke, presumably, is not a Sith, so he wouldn’t call himself by a Sith title or assign one to his pupil. Instead, he’s given Kylo leave to create his own order, the Knights of Ren. > [@](#): > > So the Republic is in place, there’s a Senate, and basically the First Order is the remnants of the old Empire. But it still acts as if its the law in the galaxy. First, there’s a “Resistance”. They’re in power now, shouldn’t they be the military, hunting down the First Order wherever they are? In fact, other than the Resistance, you don’t see anyone really fighting the First Order. Where are the Republic’s army? They can’t have forgotten about the First Order seeing as how they’re building Starkillers and blowing up planets again. The galaxy is a big place. Presumably, the Republic fleet is off in Republic space, dealing with its own problems, and is too stretched out to commit a full invasion force to the corner of the Third World (Third Galaxy?) where the First Order holds sway. > [@](#): > > Does anyone else feel that the weirdo electric weapon that Stormtrooper used to fight Finn when he was using Luke’s lightsaber diminishes the lightsaber as a super powerful and cool weapon? Cortosis weave weapons popped up extensively in the old EU and have made appearances in Episode III and in Clone Wars. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/302 "2015-12-20T23:26:03Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Kylo Ren is not a Sith name. When Anakin was training but being influenced by Sidious, he was still using his regular name. As soon as Sidious took him officially as an apprentice, he gave him the name Darth Vader. Why isn’t Kylo Ren a Darth something? And Snoke too, why is he Supreme Leader instead of Darth Snoke? The Sith were an order of Dark Side users that died with Vader and the Emperor in Return of the Jedi. Snoke and Kylo Ren aren’t Sith (probably), so they wouldn’t use a title that belongs to the Sith. > [@YogSosoth](#): > > So the Republic is in place, there’s a Senate, and basically the First Order is the remnants of the old Empire. But it still acts as if its the law in the galaxy. First, there’s a “Resistance”. They’re in power now, shouldn’t they be the military, hunting down the First Order wherever they are? In fact, other than the Resistance, you don’t see anyone really fighting the First Order. Where are the Republic’s army? They can’t have forgotten about the First Order seeing as how they’re building Starkillers and blowing up planets again. A few people have mentioned it above. The First Order and the Republic are two groups in a galaxy with a lot of powers now. But the Republic doesn’t want to engage in direct warfare with the First Order, so they’ve been covertly assisting the Resistance with their fight. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/303 "2015-12-20T23:26:42Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > As with other companies I could mention _cough_Games Workshop_cough_, I want them to make money by making a good product I want to buy and selling it at an acceptable price. If Disney can make an annoyingly flawed movie without it hurting their bottom line, they have no reason to make sure the next one isn’t also annoyingly flawed. I think there’s some subtlety to it. Disney is spending gazillions of dollars on the movies. So it definitely benefits them to make a movie people enjoy, so they’ll see it over again, and maintain their level of interest for the next several movies. At the same time, Disney isn’t particularly interested in taking chances. So they’d rather do everything competently and well and safely and make a movie that is a guaranteed 7/10 or 8/10 rather than risking something more daring that might be a 10/10 but might be a 3/10 if it doesn’t quite succeed. That said, I don’t _think_ it’s just wishful thinking to say that the job of this movie was to reignite people’s love of the franchise, leaving the next two more wide open to go in interesting new directions… and of course most of the callbacks have been called back. Who’s left to randomly show up in episodes 8 and 9 that we haven’t already seen? Lando, maybe? He’s not in the same universe of being beloved as everyone who already showed up. Possibly a force ghost of Yoda? When it comes right down to it, I walked out of the theater (twice already) with a big smile on my face, excited to see what happens next… which was really not the case after The Phantom Menace. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/304 "2015-12-20T23:28:39Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > So the Republic is in place, there’s a Senate, and basically the First Order is the remnants of the old Empire. But it still acts as if its the law in the galaxy. First, there’s a “Resistance”. They’re in power now, shouldn’t they be the military, hunting down the First Order wherever they are? In fact, other than the Resistance, you don’t see anyone really fighting the First Order. Where are the Republic’s army? They can’t have forgotten about the First Order seeing as how they’re building Starkillers and blowing up planets again. There was a throwaway line before the invasion of Starkiller that “without the Republic fleet, we’re doomed.” I assume one of the planets they blew up early on was Coruscant. The idea I like is the Republic didn’t take over where the Empire used to be, but rather neither the Republic nor First Order are as powerful as the old Empire, both essentially being a smaller confederation of planets, and the Republic doesn’t want to provoke direct conflict since they’re weak so they have a kind of “proxy war” going through the Rebel Alliance. Essentially Cold War tactics. I think that’s maybe a bit too handwavey, but it works. > [@](#): > > Does anyone else feel that the weirdo electric weapon that Stormtrooper used to fight Finn when he was using Luke’s lightsaber diminishes the lightsaber as a super powerful and cool weapon? Some robots had them in Episode 3, but overall I think it’s more jarring if you’ve never touched ancillary material. The RPGs like KOTOR have invented tons of weapons that can block lightsabers. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/305 "2015-12-20T23:31:04Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Cortosis weave weapons popped up extensively in the old EU and have made appearances in Episode III and in Clone Wars. And in Return of the Jedi. They were carried (but never used) by Palpatine’s Red Guard. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/306 "2015-12-20T23:33:44Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > I think that’s maybe a bit too handwavey, but it works. Too many people have independently had that thought for it to be a handwave. I think there might even have been a line or two directly stating as much. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/307 "2015-12-20T23:41:39Z")
OK, I’ve seen it twice now, here are my thoughts: -Overall, a lot of fun, definitely enjoyed it, definitely already excited for the next one. Probably 7.5/10 -Definite high point for me was Rey, particularly her interactions with Fin early in the movie. The part where she was fixing the Falcon and pointing at the piece she needed was just hilarious and charming. The two of them have great (non-sexual) chemistry -Harrison Ford was used more, and used far better, than I expected, and I was totally satisfied with how he died. He had just finished sabotaging the evil weapon, and died trying to save his son from the dark side… and there’s a possibility that it will end up that he succeeded, if we assume there’s a chance Kylo Ren will end up being redeemed -I like the idea that Poe Dameron will be around but not one of the main characters. There should be some badasses on the goodguy side who aren’t the main focus of the story, and he was quite enjoyable in his interactions with Fin -How awesome was a blaster beam being force-frozen in flight? -The production design and visuals were (not surprisingly) fantastic. A ruined star destroyer crashed on the planet, the radiation effects for the new superweapon, etc. BB8 was also a fantastic design, fitting right into the established Star Wars droid look while clearly being his own new thing -The general acting, dialog, and flow of the screenplay was top notch What didn’t I like? -I agree that there were a few too many callbacks to the originals, most obviously the new death star. Given that we really know nothing about the one planet that it did blow up, did it really serve any purpose? Seems like the movie could have been 95% the same, with all the same story beats and everything, without that -It’s obviously not crucial to the understanding of the movie, but I do wish they’d explained a bit better the relationship between the Republic, the Resistance, and the First Order. I was trying to figure it out better on a second watching, but failed. -The plot relied an ENORMOUS amount on various coincidences. Which actually feels pretty Star Wars-y but still was a bit irksome -The giant rolling tentacle monsters didn’t really work -Much as I liked her, Rey was a slightly implausible good at everything. She’s a super starship mechanic! And pilot! And speaks droid! And is an expert in hand to hand combat! And learns to use the force way faster than Luke did! (Although if it turns out that she had been trained as a jedi and then made to forget it, that might help explain things…) -It’s one thing for Fin to see the violence of an actual battle and throw off his conditioning and training. It’s another for him to be gleefully killing the people who were presumably the only friends he’d ever had moments later (when they’re stealing the Tie Fighter). Also, if he’s been raised and brainwashed by the First Order his whole life, how did ever hear of Han Solo to begin with? ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/308 "2015-12-20T23:56:28Z")
I’m not buying the prediction that Rey was previously trained in the Force then brainwashed to forget it by Luke. First-off, don’t you think everyone would have recognized her? Certainly Kylo Ren would have, since they’re seemingly the same age and would have trained together. I’m also not sure that I buy her being Luke’s daughter - Ben and Yoda would have strongly counselled him against getting involved in a relationship, seeing as it led to Anakin’s fall. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/309 "2015-12-21T00:06:21Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > I’m not buying the prediction that Rey was previously trained in the Force then brainwashed to forget it by Luke. First-off, don’t you think everyone would have recognized her? Certainly Kylo Ren would have, since they’re seemingly the same age and would have trained together. I’m also not sure that I buy her being Luke’s daughter - Ben and Yoda would have strongly counselled him against getting involved in a relationship, seeing as it led to Anakin’s fall. In addition, the flashback she gets when touching Luke’s light saber seems to indicate that she was very young when her family left… 8 or so. (My wife thinks that the hand holding her, pulling her away, belonged to the “this is worth a quarter portion” pawnshop guy… so maybe he was paid by someone or other to keep an eye on her?) Arguing in favor of the previous-knowlege-of-The-Force theory is the way she reacts during her duel with Kylo Ren when he says something about The Force… almost as if actually hearing those words made her remember a bit more that she already knew. It’s certainly also possible that there’s some more mystical force-knowledge-transference thing going on… the ghost of Yoda has been with her all along preparing her to become a Jedi, or some such thing. Or maybe we’ll never find out. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/310 "2015-12-21T00:20:22Z")
I saw it a few hours ago, and just slogged through this already-lengthy thread. I thought it was more-or-less established that Rey was Luke’s daughter (and Kylo Ren’s cousin) so I almost expected the last line of the film to be, “Luke, I am your daughter.” And Finn was interesting. I barely watched the prequel trilogy but thought the stormtroopers were supposed to be clones. In this film, Finn and the others were stolen from their parents and raised from a young age as stormtroopers. I’m wondering if the future films are going to explore his background. And the movie didn’t show us the scene in which Kylo Ren’s was recovered from the planet before it blew up. If this had been a Marvel movie, that would perhaps have been the post-credit scene. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/311 "2015-12-21T00:37:52Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Ben and Yoda would have strongly counselled him against getting involved in a relationship, seeing as it led to Anakin’s fall. Ben is the guy who told Luke that Vader murdered his father. Luke is the guy who, upon telling Ben there’s still good in his father – as per Padmé’s last words! – gets dismissed out of hand; and Ben, upon being told that Luke refuses to kill his own father, replied _“Then the Emperor has already won.”_ Luke, of course, disregarded him; and Luke was, of course, right to do so. Yoda told Luke that, if he left now, he could help his friends, but he would destroy all for which they’d fought and suffered; Luke of course disregarded him; all for which they’d fought and suffered of course _wasn’t_ destroyed. They kept steering him wrong; he ignored them, and proved them wrong; why start listening to the “Into Exile I Must Go; Failed I Have” crew _after_ getting the win? ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/312 "2015-12-21T01:22:39Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > And Finn was interesting. I barely watched the prequel trilogy but thought the stormtroopers were supposed to be clones. I’m sure someone actually invested in the franchise can elaborate but, as I recall, they were clones in the prequels but that didn’t work so well for whatever reason and they went to traditional soldiers. In the beginning (I think when Fin helps Poe escape), the general dude remarks to Phasma that perhaps they should return to using clones since her troopers are so ill trained and fallible. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/313 "2015-12-21T02:10:29Z")
Warning: total amateur here Luke’s light saber in the movie. That is Anakin’s, right? The one that Luke was fighting with when Vader cut off his hand in Empire? So that thing fell and has been recovered, right? It’s not the one Luke actually uses to defeat Vader and all throughout Return of the Jedi. He must still have that one on him(and didn’t it have a green saber?). So…not only do they have Luke’s saber, they have the one that somehow fell? Do I have any of this right or am I just confused? ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/314 "2015-12-21T02:11:31Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > Warning: total amateur here > > Luke’s light saber in the movie. That is Anakin’s, right? The one that Luke was fighting with when Vader cut off his hand in Empire? So that thing fell and has been recovered, right? > > It’s not the one Luke actually uses to defeat Vader and all throughout Return of the Jedi. He must still have that one on him(and didn’t it have a green saber?). > > So…not only do they have Luke’s saber, they have the one that somehow fell? > > Do I have any of this right or am I just confused? Yes, that’s the one he dropped when he fought Vader on Bespin. It must have been fished out of the base’s ductwork or \. > [@Jophiel](#): > > I’m sure someone actually invested in the franchise can elaborate but, as I recall, they were clones in the prequels but that didn’t work so well for whatever reason and they went to traditional soldiers. In the beginning (I think when Fin helps Poe escape), the general dude remarks to Phasma that perhaps they should return to using clones since her troopers are so ill trained and fallible. I don’t know if they ever gave a solid reason, even in the EU. I think the general consensus is just that the Empire was big and powerful enough to have an army without the need for clones. Based on The Force Awakens, there’s a line that they abducted children to make them Storm Troopers which I’m sure we were supposed to find abhorrent except the old Jedi Order basically did the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![gonzoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a6a055/32.png) [@gonzoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzoron)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/315 "2015-12-21T02:38:34Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > Luke’s light saber in the movie. That is Anakin’s, right? The one that Luke was fighting with when Vader cut off his hand in Empire? So that thing fell and has been recovered, right? > > It’s not the one Luke actually uses to defeat Vader and all throughout Return of the Jedi. He must still have that one on him(and didn’t it have a green saber?). Not only did that one have a green blade, it also had a very different looking hilt: [![](http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--vlWAIWcD--/18mstww00xmbijpg.jpg) ](http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--vlWAIWcD--/18mstww00xmbijpg.jpg) So, yes, the one in this movie is Anakin’s, the one that fell in Bespin. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/316 "2015-12-21T02:44:03Z")
The one Anakin used to murder a bunch of children, you can hear their screams before Rey walks into the room. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/317 "2015-12-21T02:45:06Z")
I remember a scene in this movie in which someone wielded a lightsaber against someone with a metal weapon. The two struck each other as if they were both solid objects. I always thought of a lightsaber as a powerful laser beam with a defined length, and that it would cut through almost anything. Isn’t that how it works? ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/318 "2015-12-21T03:04:18Z")
Saw it last Friday. The glow is still there. I’ll be watching it again, soon. My only ‘oh, come on!’ moment was when Han stepped out onto the ramp to meet his son. My thought was “They’re still not putting railings on those things?” > [@Jophiel](#): > > . . . I didn’t have an issue with Ren Kylo (who my wife and I kept accidentally calling Rilo Kiley) being young or whiny or throwing fits. I figured he’s new at this and trying to prove himself . . . I actually preferred his childishness to Anakin’s similar fits that were portrayed as a sign of deep angst or something. By comparison, it’s showing that Anakin’s fits were also childish. > [@bucketybuck](#): > > . . . I don’t care that its a greatest hits movie, it probably needed to be to wash off the stink of the prequels and now that they have put the train back on the tracks they can do something else in the next films. . . . Yes. I also think that the meta-arc is circling back to the same conflict. Last time Luke, Leia, and Han beat the dark side, but were not able to set up a stable Neo-Jedi school. Something went wrong and the conflict re-began. Now we’re circling back to the same conflict. Can our heroes, new and old, win in a way that finally sets things on a truly stable footing? I really want that to be what Luke sequestered himself for - to use the force to fish in the future for the path to success. They don’t just need to win again, they need to win and get it right. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/319 "2015-12-21T03:08:13Z")
Political Wonk Wank… It’s an interesting contrast between what we know of the Empire and what we know of the First Order. The Empire is essentially a dictatorship. Palpatine runs things directly and hands down policy to the regional governors rather than through any fake attempt at legislation. It’s a tried and true system seen recently in Camodia with Pol Pot or even today’s North Korea. There’s a godlike leader and lackeys - however exalted - to carry out the leaders decisions and policy. Palpatine’s hung up on the Death Star? Of course a second one will be built. He can’t be wrong. The First Order, however, differs strongly from that in that it appears to be a classic Fascism. A strong cult of personality combined with very early indoctrination combined with the belief that the whole is more important than the individual leads to excessive loyalty in both troops and citizens. Fascism’s are - historically - harder to knock over than dictatorships because of the way the citizenry become invested in the success of the society. Rather than cheering when Palpatine dies, the average person who grew up under the First Order can be expected to consider the death of Snoke a personal blow. I don’t know if they’ll go as deeply into it as they can. Well all know that when Star Wars gets into political or economic theory things go to hell in a hurry. But it’s still a strong difference between the two governments that we’re presented with. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/320 "2015-12-21T03:09:57Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > So the Republic is in place, there’s a Senate, and basically the First Order is the remnants of the old Empire. Heh. Like for the re-established Republic, the First Order of business is to mop up remnants of the old Empire… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645.md?page=17)