# Star Wars: The Force Awakens - Seen It (Assume Spoilers Within) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 16, 2015, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645 "2015-12-16T23:16:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/521 "2015-12-22T21:46:20Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > But he’s good at lots of other stuff: he, not the sneaky guy, comes up with the plan to act like prison guards escorting a manacled Chewbacca to [del]Leia’s[/del] his cell block; and, one _“I’m Luke Skywalker, and I’m here to rescue you”_ later, he rope-line-swings her to safety before taking aim at TIE fighters for the first time on the Falcon and shooting them down so easily that Han Frickin’ Solo warns him against getting cocky. And _then_ he pulls off the million-to-one shot when flying an X-Wing for the first time. > > (And, weirdly, him learning in like a minute how to parry blast after blast after blast _with his eyes closed_ is a skill he never even winds up using for the rest of the movie; it’s just there to show us that The Force Is Strong In This One, so we’ll accept that he can perform whatever feat he winds up needing to pull off next.) He comes up with the plan to act like prison guards, but do you remember what happens after they rescue the Princess? If you answered, he didn’t really think that far ahead, you win a cookie (that’s why they end up in the trash compactor when Leia improvises). Leia bails out Luke and Han. In said trash compactor, Luke has to be reminded that he can call C3PO to try to hack into the computer to prevent them from getting crushed. While he’s good at shooting and flying (which was set up a slight bit on a much smaller level by talking about how good he was shooting things on Tatooine), he’s obviously not good at everything - at least not in that first movie and makes quite a number of mistakes. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/522 "2015-12-22T21:58:26Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > He comes up with the plan to act like prison guards, And talking Han into it. (He later needles Han just right, and Han comes back for the big showdown like Luke knew he would.) > [@](#): > > In said trash compactor, Luke has to be reminded that he can call C3PO to try to hack into the computer to prevent them from getting crushed. I don’t recall that. I mean, yes, I recall Luke telling him what to do, and the day gets saved, but who do you think reminded him? ---
**Author:** ![Taber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac91a4/32.png) [@Taber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taber)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/523 "2015-12-22T21:58:45Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Who are these women who start strong and end as the weak support of the male hero? Rey is undergoing a stereotypical Hero’s Journey. The comparisons the article makes between Rey and Luke are well made. Wyldstyle in Lego Movie and Trinity in Matrix are the ones that jump to mind to me. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/524 "2015-12-22T22:09:05Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I don’t recall that. I mean, yes, I recall Luke telling him what to do, and the day gets saved, but who do you think reminded him? Ooops, I did remember that wrong. They are about to get crushed and Luke remembers he’s has a comm link and starts trying to use it. However, Luke makes a number of mistakes in even getting to that point. Talking someone into something does not a Gary Stu make. (A better SW example, FWIW, is Anakin in the Phantom Menace) ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/525 "2015-12-22T22:09:47Z")
I think the concept of a Mary Sue is a bit sexist because of its uneven application. However, I think there is a concept that’s salvageable from it, and that’s the “Sir Galahad” type of character. That is, the “Walking Plot Tumor.” Mary Sue has been corrupted to just be “a (usually female) character who is more competent than I think they should be.” The walking plot tumor is someone who just walks in and consumes the entire plot. No character acts like themselves when they’re around, their very existence metastasizes and makes everyone else look incompetent, and no matter what they do everyone berates themselves for not being like them. This is your Sir Galahad, your Wesley Crusher, and yes, your self-insert fanfiction written by 14 year olds. But Rey is not this character at all. Yeah, she doesn’t strictly have many flaws, but “character flaws” is a really simplistic way to view good character writing. Rey is, in my opinion, compelling and well-written. She grows, but doesn’t have an explicit enumerable set of flaws, but neither does Luke unless you count “mildly whiny” as a character flaw. Which, if you do, you kind of have to concede that Bella “I’m so clumsy tee hee” Swan also has a character flaw. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/526 "2015-12-22T22:17:34Z")
Okay, new theory: Rey _is_ Luke’s daughter, produced with DNA from (1) an unknown female, and (2) recovered from Luke’s severed hand! Whadaya think? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/527 "2015-12-22T22:20:32Z")
> [@Max\_Torque](#): > > Okay, new theory: Rey _is_ Luke’s daughter, produced with DNA from (1) an unknown female, and (2) recovered from Luke’s severed hand! > > Whadaya think? Well, it’s better than the “Rey is Leia’s unwanted child from her time with Jabba the Hutt” theory … 😉 ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/528 "2015-12-22T22:22:42Z")
I like the Palpatine daughter theory better… would explain why Luke would abandon her on Jakku (I’m assuming he’s the one that did the abandoning), especially after Ben Solo went oh, so wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/529 "2015-12-22T22:27:15Z")
How about this: Luke gets some female student of his pregnant, but runs off before he finds out about it; the woman, chased by First Order baddies, leaves the kid on that planet while she races off to lead the pursuit away from her kid (meaning to double back for her when the heat was off); woman is killed in the ensuing fight. So Rey is Luke’s daughter but neither of them know it. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/530 "2015-12-22T22:28:29Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > How about this: Luke gets some female student of his pregnant, but runs off before he finds out about it; the woman, chased by First Order baddies, leaves the kid on that planet while she races off to lead the pursuit away from her kid (meaning to double back for her when the heat was off); woman is killed in the ensuing fight. > > So Rey is Luke’s daughter but neither of them know it. Not bad. I can get behind that. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/531 "2015-12-22T22:35:19Z")
> [@MrAtoz](#): > > James Bond, Batman, Sherlock Holmes, The Doctor, pick your favorite. They’re all ridiculously, unrealistically good at their various jobs, the biggest badass in town, the smartest guy in the room, better than everyone else at dozens of different skills, with an encyclopedic knowledge of hundreds of esoteric subjects. And no one ever calls them Mary Sues, or even Gary Stus. They’re just the hero, so of course their competence goes without saying. Nonsense. James Bond may be an unrealistically competent renaissance man, but he is also a man who has spent at least fifteen years in his profession after having been hand-picked for his suitability for this role, which makes his competence easier for the audience to buy as being credible. Star Wars has a similar niche in its own setting: the Jedi Master. _That_ is what is wrong with Rey’s breadth and depth of skills - that she should be this good by the time she becomes a Jedi Master, not right out of the gate. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/532 "2015-12-22T22:35:43Z")
I, for one, am hoping that Rey is of absolutely no significant parentage whatsoever. Seems to me that it makes for a much better story, and a much more interesting counterpoint to Luke’s tale, if Rey is just an orphan scavenger who is guided by the Force to greatness, than if she’s only who she is because her parents/grandparents were special. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/533 "2015-12-22T22:39:55Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I, for one, am hoping that Rey is of absolutely no significant parentage whatsoever. Seems to me that it makes for a much better story, and a much more interesting counterpoint to Luke’s tale, if Rey is just an orphan scavenger who is guided by the Force to greatness, than if she’s only who she is because her parents/grandparents were special. I think this would be extremely unlikely. The movie spends a lot of time setting up her abandonment as significant. It would be a big surprise, to say the least, if she was abandoned merely because her nobody-special parents decided it would be more amusing to tour the universe child-free. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/534 "2015-12-22T22:48:08Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Not sure what part of being a moisture farmer teaches you how to become a fighter ace in your first engagement. Shooting womp rats. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/535 "2015-12-22T22:50:25Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > How about this: Luke gets some female student of his pregnant, but runs off before he finds out about it; the woman, chased by First Order baddies, leaves the kid on that planet while she races off to lead the pursuit away from her kid (meaning to double back for her when the heat was off); woman is killed in the ensuing fight. > > So Rey is Luke’s daughter but neither of them know it. It’s plausible. Rey did say that she had to get back to Jakku, because _someone_ was waiting for her there. We never did find out who this was. ---
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/536 "2015-12-22T22:54:17Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > How many folks call Ripley from Alien a “Mary Sue”? or Katniss Everdeen?. I’ll give you Ripley, in exchange for you giving me Bond. 🙂 On the other hand, it didn’t take a lot of searching to find discussions about whether or not Katniss is a Mary Sue–there are advocates of both sides of the question. It’s actually not that easy to Google, because there is a website about women in geekdom called “The Mary Sue,” which tends to show up as a result any time you search a female character’s name together with the words Mary Sue. **Jragon** has some good thoughts on the matter, with which I largely agree. [QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] Shooting womp rats. [/QUOTE] I’m betting those womp rats weren’t shooting back, and they probably didn’t have fighter cover. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/537 "2015-12-22T22:54:55Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Rey did say that she had to get back to Jakku, because _someone_ was waiting for her there. We never did find out who this was. Maybe just Obi-Wan von Sydow. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/538 "2015-12-22T23:06:31Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Nonsense. James Bond may be an unrealistically competent renaissance man, but he is also a man who has spent at least fifteen years in his profession after having been hand-picked for his suitability for this role, which makes his competence easier for the audience to buy as being credible. Star Wars has a similar niche in its own setting: the Jedi Master. _That_ is what is wrong with Rey’s breadth and depth of skills - that she should be this good by the time she becomes a Jedi Master, not right out of the gate. Except most of the skills that earn Rey the label of “Mary Sue” are things that she explicitly knew how to do before the movie started. Piloting, repair, and fighting are all things she already knows how to do before we first meet her in the movie. If Bond isn’t a Mary Sue because he’s got a backstory to explain how he has those skills (and that doesn’t actually disqualify him from “Mary Sue” status, but whatever) then Rey should be granted the same license. Which leaves us with her Force powers. And what are those powers? She mind tricks a Stormtrooper - who are famously weak-willed - and she levitates a foot long piece of metal. Neither of these are exceptional feats of Force ability, and most importantly, she does both _immediately after Ren uses those powers against her._ Is that “too fast” for her to pick up those powers? Who can say? It doesn’t seem that much faster than Luke picked up his. He was blocking blaster bolts blindfolded after about three minutes of conversation with Ben, and that was the whole sum of his training before he blew up the Death Star. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/539 "2015-12-22T23:08:09Z")
Here is the fundamental problem with Rey: She only works as a character if you’re wiling to engage in some epic-level making-stuff-up-in-your-head. If you don’t, then she basically turns into a massive plot device. It’s even worse because all her character bits are front-loaded, so she becomes remarkably dull in the second half of the movie, exactly when she suddenly gains multiple superpowers. This movie simply does not stand on its own. I honestly don’t think it can stand on its own as a film. This is fanservice with a half-billion in marketing behind it. IN the end, the movie is entertaining, but not fulfilling. It’s a solid popcorn film, but that’s also not some amazing feat of daring. The current metacritic use score of 7.4 feels about right to me: good, but it’s not going to leave any lasting impression. ---
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/540 "2015-12-22T23:09:31Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Which leaves us with her Force powers. And what are those powers? She mind tricks a Stormtrooper Who was, in fact, James Bond! See, it all fits together! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645.md?page=28)