# Star Wars: The Force Awakens - Seen It (Assume Spoilers Within) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 16, 2015, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645 "2015-12-16T23:16:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 48
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/941 "2015-12-29T01:45:37Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Ren. Rey. Ren. Rey. A coincidence, I’m sure. She was called Kira in Michael Arndt’s original draft. And looks like Keira in real life. Has anyone in this thread mentioned that “Kylo” is one part S **ky** walker, one part So **lo**? ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/942 "2015-12-29T01:50:51Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > [Daniel Radcliffe](http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/10/2/1412251231001/Daniel-Radcliffe-will-sta-014.jpg) as [Wedge Antilles](http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1792481/images/o-WEDGE-ANTILLES-facebook.jpg). If we’re picking from Potter, I would’ve picked [Matthew Lewis](http://www.eonline.com/eol_images/Entire_Site/2014524/rs_634x1024-140624150522-634.matthew-lewis13.cm.62414.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/943 "2015-12-29T02:26:10Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > The throne room scene with Palpatine, Vader, and Luke is tough to beat. Ugh, for me that was the lowest point of the entire franchise. And I’m including Ewoks, Jar Jar, the whole nine yards. Wait…I forgot about midichlorians. :smack: OK, the second lowest point. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/944 "2015-12-29T02:38:09Z")
> [@D18](#): > > Leia and Han Solo forget they also had a daughter? :dubious: Of course not - how are you deducing that? Just because they talked about their son and not the daughter does not mean they don’t have one. There were so many hints dropped, and it will make for much better drama in the next 2 episodes with her being Leia’s, not Luke’s. She’s still connected to Luke since A: he’s her uncle and B: she was probably at his padawan camp before the incident. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/945 "2015-12-29T03:26:59Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Ugh, for me that was the lowest point of the entire franchise. And I’m including Ewoks, Jar Jar, the whole nine yards. Wait…I forgot about midichlorians. :smack: OK, the second lowest point. Explain your reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/946 "2015-12-29T03:43:01Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I have never noticed this being said when watching the film, but now I see it’s listed as a famous quote in several places. > > Why? What’s the subtext I’m missing that makes this a great line? I can’t speak for the filmmakers, but for me it’s about an emotionless, distractionless state. His mind is in perfect harmony with his body, and his craft is an extension of his own hands. I remember reading something by a world champion athlete where he was talking about the timer counting down and said ‘3 you put your foot up, 2 you balance your weight against the gate, 1 your mind goes completely quiet.’ Wedge is no Jedi, but in this moment he’s visualizing what’s about to happen as clearly as one. He’s in a place that any samurai warrior, or Roland the gunslinger would recognize and admire. He’s in the place where Captain Sully was when he landed that airbus on the Hudson river. Gives me goosebumps, it does. I, for one, would have loved a throwaway scene, some kind of mentor/mentee moment, between Wedge and Poe. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/947 "2015-12-29T04:49:26Z")
As an aside, I recently found out that Wedge’s actor appears in the Horatio Hornblower TV films as Captain Dreadnought Foster. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/948 "2015-12-29T04:57:46Z")
And his nephew gets interesting work. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/949 "2015-12-29T05:25:59Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Explain your reasoning. (1) Darth Vader’s redemption. I don’t believe in redemption for villains who have calculatingly killed and tortured innocents over a long period of time. Just don’t believe in it, period. No ifs, ands, buts, or any other kinds of exceptions. And especially not in a movie franchise that is watched by a lot of kids and at the beginning seemed to represent moral clarity. [This is the element that I have never encountered anyone else lamenting, other than my dad when we first left the theatre when the movie came out. I find that kind of depressing.] (2) The Emperor is a lame villain in that movie (he was better in the prequels). In contrast to Vader’s previous badass awesomeness, he was just kind of this hissing, cackling weirdo with a bad makeup job and lightning fingers. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/950 "2015-12-29T05:30:11Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > (1) Darth Vader’s redemption. I don’t believe in redemption for villains who have calculatingly killed and tortured innocents over a long period of time. Just don’t believe in it, period. No ifs, ands, buts, or any other kinds of exceptions. And especially not in a movie that is watched by a lot of kids and was at the beginning seemed to represent moral clarity. So when he’s watching his son writhe in agony, what do you think _should_ happen? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/951 "2015-12-29T05:41:36Z")
Who says that scene has to exist at all? I also noted that the lightning hands thing is dumb, and the Emperor is just lame in general. A final duel between just Luke and Vader, similar to _Empire_ but with Luke winning and killing his father and then sobbing about it would have made more sense to me. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/952 "2015-12-29T05:45:36Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Who says that scene has to exist at all? I also noted that the lightning hands thing is dumb, and the Emperor is just lame in general. A final duel between just Luke and Vader, similar to _Empire_ but with Luke winning and killing his father and then sobbing about it would have made more sense to me. Uh, okay. So what do you think should’ve then happened with the Emperor? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/953 "2015-12-29T05:46:24Z")
And even if you play it out the same way with Vader killing the Emperor and saving Luke, that doesn’t merit the tender death scene, nor does it merit being embraced as a good guy in the ghost world with Obi-Wan and Yoda. After all, Vader had already plotted to work with Luke to kill the emperor. Luke just wasn’t having it. Vader doing that doesn’t suddenly make him a good guy that we should shed any tears for. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/954 "2015-12-29T05:53:24Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Uh, okay. So what do you think should’ve then happened with the Emperor? I think it was a mistake to introduce him at all, particularly as any sort of up close figure. He was just not as imposing and impressive as Vader, so making him Vader’s superior undercut the whole enterprise. They certainly should have spent more money on his makeup or prosthetics, or go back to the drawing board. And someone should have noticed that his finger-lightning shooting was way less creepy and disturbing than Vaters force choking. That scene can easily be exhibit A for a non-SF fan to point to as demonstrating the cheesiness of the genre. Contrast this to a scene earlier in the trilogy of Vader force choking someone, which is much more ominous and powerful, and harder to laugh off. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/955 "2015-12-29T06:36:38Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > And even if you play it out the same way with Vader killing the Emperor and saving Luke, that doesn’t merit the tender death scene, nor does it merit being embraced as a good guy in the ghost world with Obi-Wan and Yoda. Sure it does. If someone is ever in that situation, I want him to sacrifice himself to save the good guy by taking the bad guy down with him. I want that to the point where I’d gladly cue up a tender death scene for him. I want it to the point where I’d okay a ghost body for him. Because what matters is him making the right decision. What’s the alternative? Ask him to choose between being second-in-command to an evil emperor or dying for a good cause – and patiently add that _hey, we’ll still hate you and piss on your grave, because we sure won’t embrace you for seeing the error of your ways and choosing to do what’s right; I take it you know that?_ Tell the addict to beat his addiction in time to save the day – or don’t, because, meh, whatevs, we’ll despise you _regardless?_ What the hell kind of message is that? I prefer _whatever you’ve done, you can – even now – still choose to do what’s heroic._ ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/956 "2015-12-29T09:53:15Z")
It’s one thing to tell someone something before the fact. Wouldn’t a cop being held hostage at gunpoint be willing to say to some deranged killer “sure, just hand over the gun and I’ll let you go”, followed by an instant arrest if he falls for it? Let’s say Eric Harris helps Dylan Klebold kill ten people at Columbine, but instead of continuing the massacre with the last couple deaths before the joint suicide, he has a change of heart, turns on Klebold and they both die in the gun battle, with two fewer victims than what actually happened. Survivors witness this. Is Harris now someone to be eternally commemorated as a hero? How are the families of the people he cold-bloodedly murdered before that supposed to feel about this? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/957 "2015-12-29T10:24:36Z")
Whoops, here’s a response to a couple people I saved offline a few days ago and then lost track of: > [@Dorjan](#): > > The music seemed… less bombastic. I thought my hearing aid battery was getting low, or something was up with the sound system in the theater. I was expecting my usual emotional reaction to hearing the Main Theme blare out with the title/crawl. This did not happen. I noticed this too! This was when I was still totally psyched for the movie and had yet to have any reason to feel let down. But I was expecting goosebumps and was surprised not to get them. > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Well, when he said it, they were _already_ a long way down from the medal ceremony, right? They’d already gone from lying low on Hoth to fleeing to Cloud City; Han had already been tracked down by Boba Fett, and captured by Darth Vader, and was in for the deep-freeze for to get displayed as a trophy by Jabba, _regardless_ of what Luke did; Threepio was already disassembled; Chewie and Leia were already in lock-up; how does Luke flying there _destroy_ what they’d fought for? > > Near as I can tell, Luke shows up, and – Leia and Chewie escape with Lando, and the droids are back in one piece apiece, and Luke survives to later (a) help rescue Han, and then (b) get Vader to turn on the Emperor right before [del]them Duke boys[/del] the undestroyed Rebel Alliance done blowed up the Death Star Mark II real good. > > And cue a bigger celebration than the medal ceremony. > > But Yoda says “You must not go.” (“And sacrifice Han and Leia?” “If you honor what they fight for, then yes.” (Because, again: “If you go now, help them you could; but you would destroy all for which they have fought, and suffered.”)) > > What’s the past-tense antonym of “must”? OK, but maybe Yoda was saying that if Luke stayed and completed his training, he could reestablish the Jedi order in a way that didn’t just promptly go to shit and leave him depressed on a far-flung mountaintop 30 years later…while his best buddy Han, on the run from multiple equivalents of Jabba the Hut this time, gets savagely betrayed and murdered by his son, and the new version of the Empire blows up multiple planets. Hell, maybe Yoda on some level sensed that it would be a bad thing for the galaxy if Han and Leia are able to have a child together. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/958 "2015-12-29T11:25:19Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > The only reason Ren survives is because of the most convenient sinkhole in cinematic history. Back to the drawing board, kid. Fire up the Evanescence. You. You I like. Riley Elf’s flagship is hereby christened the Evanescence,. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/959 "2015-12-29T11:36:28Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yep. But given the fanboy over-the-top hatefilled rejection of epi’s 1, 2, 3, this was needed. They _had_ to recreate the magic of the first films. > > In this, they did fine. I’d give this a solid B+. Very entertaining and a great call back. People keep offering this as a defense but I don’t see why “recapture the magic” needs to be a beat-for-beat retread of what we’ve seen. I liked the movie overall but it also felt very safe and lazy. “You kids like cute robots and Death Stars, right?” ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/960 "2015-12-29T11:55:39Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > OK, but maybe Yoda was saying that if Luke stayed and completed his training, he could reestablish the Jedi order in a way that didn’t just promptly go to shit and leave him depressed on a far-flung mountaintop 30 years later…while his best buddy Han, on the run from multiple equivalents of Jabba the Hut this time, gets savagely betrayed and murdered by his son, and the new version of the Empire blows up multiple planets. Hell, maybe Yoda on some level sensed that it would be a bad thing for the galaxy if Han and Leia are able to have a child together. Or maybe that’s just excuse-making for another shitty filmmaker tearing down his predecessor’s work to justify his plans for a sequel. It sucked when _Terminator 3_ did it, it sucked when _Alien 3_ did it, and it sucked when _A Force Awakens_ did it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645.md?page=47) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645.md?page=49)