# Star Wars: The Force Awakens - Seen It (Assume Spoilers Within) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 16, 2015, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645 "2015-12-16T23:16:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 53
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/1041 "2015-12-30T20:38:06Z")
Han: “Leia, why in the world would you not tell me that I have a daughter and then hide her off on some remote planet?” Leia: “Eh, I don’t know? That’s what My mother did. I guess that’s just what we do.” ---
**Author:** ![Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tired_and_Cranky)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/1042 "2015-12-30T20:43:46Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > Biggest problem with the mask is although it’s cool, he has no damn reason to wear it at all. At least Vader had the angle where his whole suit was a life support system for him, so it’s a convenient excuse to look like a badass. Since he’s clearly just wearing it to be cool and for no other reason, that kind of automatically makes him less cool. It’s a rule or something. He is wearing it to be like the grandfather he admires so much. And it does make him less cool. That’s also part of the point. He can’t exceed his grandfather as a dark side Jedi master. He can’t even approach what his grandfather accomplished but he is going to keep pushing away his light side urgings until he does. He will fake it until he makes it, so to speak. ---
**Author:** ![Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tired_and_Cranky)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/1043 "2015-12-30T20:55:13Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > Han: “Leia, why in the world would you not tell me that I have a daughter and then hide her off on some remote planet?” > > Leia: “Eh, I don’t know? That’s what My mother did. I guess that’s just what we do.” Hee hee. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/1044 "2015-12-30T20:59:25Z")
> [@FluffyBob](#): > > Well fugly sure, but he has a crazy face. Best line from the person next to me: “_Ashton Kutcher!?_ I didn’t see That coming…!” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/1045 "2015-12-30T21:00:03Z")
Okay, this is a long thread that I have not read all the way through, but I just got back from my second viewing and have some observations. 1. Kylo Ren’s lightsaber blade is trash. It’s all flickery and whatnot. This implies that he has not received adequate training, since Jedi traditionally make their own lightsabers using the force. This leads me to wonder whether Snoake is a force user at all. 2. Harrison Ford’s facial expressions are so much more meaningful the second time around. When Rey says “I didn’t know there was so much green in the whole galaxy,” Ford gives her a look of heartbreaking guilt. He knows _exactly_ who she is. This happens probably a half-dozen times over the course of the movie. 3. Still almost lost my shit when Rey presents the lightsaber to Luke at the end of the movie. 4. Try and convince me that Han Solo running away from the rolling space monster wasn’t a _Raiders of the Lost Ark_ boulder scene homage. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/1046 "2015-12-30T21:05:30Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > Okay, this is a long thread that I have not read all the way through, but I just got back from my second viewing and have some observations. > > 1. Kylo Ren’s lightsaber blade is trash. It’s all flickery and whatnot. This implies that he has not received adequate training, since Jedi traditionally make their own lightsabers using the force. This leads me to wonder whether Snoake is a force user at all. Which could be an answer for those who demand to know why he can’t overcome a storm trooper and an untrained young woman. Maybe his light saber is so lousy it impedes him. Like using a sword that’s unbalanced and dull and too heavy. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/1047 "2015-12-30T21:12:23Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Which could be an answer for those who demand to know why he can’t overcome a storm trooper and an untrained young woman. I think Finn probably has some sword training, actually. The heavy trooper that he fought was using what’s presumably a type of vibroblade (in the EU they were weapons capable of parrying lightsabers). His is all badass and heavy, but it’s not inconceivable that every trooper would receive some basic training in melee combat. I also figure that Kylo’s blade’s lousiness means that it would be a lot more difficult to parry blows from the good one. Kylo’s probably never even _fought_ against a quality lightsaber before - otherwise why wouldn’t he be using one of those instead of his shitty one? ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/1048 "2015-12-30T21:35:42Z")
Has anyone else put forward the possibility that Captain Phasma is a droid? ---
**Author:** ![Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiendish_astronaut/32/3295_2.png) [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/1049 "2015-12-30T22:11:31Z")
The other point about he plot is that it was co-written by Lauwrence Kasdan who was behind the plot of Empire Strikes back and Return of the Jedi, so I don’t really feel the story has been hijacked by outsiders. And remember that Ren was obsessed with Vader and the Empire, so why wouldn’t he build a Death Star style weapon? But I agree it would have been nice to have a bit more original. That didn’t ruin the adventure for me though, and there is scope for plenty of originality now they have established that Star Wars is back. What would have been really interesting is if eps 1-3 had never been made and they’d asked Abrams to direct them now. He might have bought the fun out in those films. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/1050 "2015-12-30T22:58:05Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > Has anyone else put forward the possibility that Captain Phasma is a droid? It was unclear to me what happens Phasma. Do they kill her? ---
**Author:** ![N9IWP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/n9iwp/32/3154_2.png) [@N9IWP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/N9IWP)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/1051 "2015-12-30T23:08:47Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > It was unclear to me what happens Phasma. Do they kill her? Presumably they shoved her down a garbage chute into a trash compactor I read somewhere\* she is in Episode VIII, so she apparently escapes that and the destruction of Starkiller base. Brian \*not sure how official that source was ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/1052 "2015-12-30T23:25:02Z")
> [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](#): > > And remember that Ren was obsessed with Vader and the Empire, so why wouldn’t he build a Death Star style weapon? For the same reason no neo-Nazi has ever taken over Europe. Even if Kylo Ren _wanted_ to build a Death Star out of the mistaken belief that the first one was Vader’s pet project and not Tarkin’s, that does not mean he should have been able to. When the Empire built the Death Stars, they controlled almost the entire galaxy. The _losers_ of the Galactic Civil War should not have been building something hundreds of times bigger. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/1053 "2015-12-30T23:38:37Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > It was unclear to me what happens Phasma. Do they kill her? After she turns off the shields, she disappears from the story, the implication being they sent her into a trash compactor, and then the Starkiller Base is destroyed a little while later. It wouldn’t surprise me if there were scenes planned (or filmed then edited out) showing more of her fate. ---
**Author:** ![Grsz11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Grsz11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grsz11)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/1054 "2015-12-30T23:46:12Z")
> **[Which Characters Are Returning For 'Star Wars Episode VIII'? - /Film](https://www.slashfilm.com/541711/star-wars-episode-viii-cast/)** > > Lucasfilm's Kathleen Kennedy drops some hints about who is in the Star Wars Episode VIII cast. Who's returning from Episode VII for the sequel? Gwendolyn Christie (Phasma) is supposed to be in Ep.8. No clue as to how they’ll portray her survival ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/1055 "2015-12-30T23:51:03Z")
I don’t have time to read through this entire thread, but was I the only person who wanted Kylo Ren (whom my husband called Emo Sith) to accidentally blow the base up during one of his temper tantrums? Also, which stormtrooper did Finn fight with a lightsabre? It didn’t look like Phasma to me, but was it just some random one? Or was it JB-007, (Daniel Craig) on whom Rey used the Force? ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2015, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/1056 "2015-12-31T00:22:09Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > After she turns off the shields, she disappears from the story, the implication being they sent her into a trash compactor, and then the Starkiller Base is destroyed a little while later. It wouldn’t surprise me if there were scenes planned (or filmed then edited out) showing more of her fate. Apology accepted, Captain Plasma. ---
**Author:** ![joemama24\_98](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ce7236/32.png) [@joemama24\_98](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joemama24_98)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2015, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/1057 "2015-12-31T00:22:58Z")
> [@obfusciatrist](#): > > Personally, I knew it with 98% certainty when Leia told him to bring their son back. Since they’d been following all emotional beats of Star Wars I figured that meant he was going to go the way of Obi Wan. > > I wasn’t bothered by him dying or knowing it was going to happen. What bothered me what exactly he and Leia were planning to do if they could get him to come home and be good. The guy just participated in destroying five planets and millions, if not billions, of people in addition to whatever he did to Luke’s Jedi Academy. But that would all be shrugged off if he hugged mommy and promised to play nice going forward? I’m responding to this after leaving the thread for a week (so I suspect others have as well) but BINGO - this was the biggest plot hole to me. He had nothing to return to. I suppose you could say the same about Vader and that it would have been more of a personal redemption - one perhaps that could only be made at the end of one’s life. The concept of salvation worked well in the original trilogy, only because it happened at the end. ---
**Author:** ![Tangent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tangent/32/3098_2.png) [@Tangent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tangent)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2015, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/1058 "2015-12-31T01:11:20Z")
> [@Dendarii\_Dame](#): > > Also, which stormtrooper did Finn fight with a lightsabre? It didn’t look like Phasma to me, but was it just some random one? Or was it JB-007, (Daniel Craig) on whom Rey used the Force? Fans are referring to him at TR-8R, because he yells “Traitor!” at Finn just before they throw down. I think he will be the Boba-Fett of this movie–expect to see lots of TR-8R cosplayers at the cons this year. ---
**Author:** ![joemama24\_98](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ce7236/32.png) [@joemama24\_98](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joemama24_98)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2015, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/1059 "2015-12-31T01:13:27Z")
Some (rehashed) thoughts: I can buy Rey (and Finn) kicking Ren’s ass at the end. He was already seriously injured and still managed quite a fight. But his injuries provide a logical explanation for the outcome. I think he was pounding his wounds to feed off the pain. Rey clearly has an unrevealed background that can someday hopefully explain her affinity for the force and piloting skills. Despite the disconnect between Rey at the beginning and Rey at the end, I like her character and think she was well cast. She’s the clear protagonist for this trilogy. I don’t think it’s a big deal if they don’t address her piloting skills - Luke destroyed the death star in an X-Wing he had never flown before (willing suspension of disbelief, T-16 and womp rats not withstanding). I can’t recall if Rey and Leia had met already before the very end. I don’t think so - hadn’t Rey had been captured without Leia meeting her? If so, they connected very directly at the end, which must mean something. Everyone (me too) seems to think Rey must be Luke’s daughter - I wish this had been the other big reveal in this episode to set up the dynamic for the remaining two. If she does end up being Luke’s offspring, I think that would be cool, but I would have rather seen it develop in this film before I had much time to imagine it. With that backdrop the story could have gone anywhere rather than revisiting old territory. I do hope there will be a “Mara Jade” surprise in the next movie - a force-strong wife to Like and mother to Rey who perhaps chose to leave Luke and take their daughter away for their own sake would be an awesome twist. What if Luke had, even briefly, descended to the dark side when Ren turned? Could Ren have perhaps turned him as well, perhaps only for a short time? What if Rey had to be protected from Luke, explaining her exile on Jakku? This is how I’d write it. It’s not necessarily clear where his mind is at near the end…he’s obviously conflicted, and likely has been for a long time. “Fear is the path to the dark side.” I’m hoping the reason that Ren is looking for Luke is to destroy him… not because he’s a latent Jedi in hiding, but because Luke is on the brink and could go either way. Rey finding him before Ren may perhaps be his redemption. I do hope Luke Skywalker won’t return as the kick-ass hero (nor this generation’s Obi-Wan Kenobi) to turn the tide in the next film(s). Too easy. His intentions need to remain conflicted and hidden. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2015, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645/1060 "2015-12-31T01:36:46Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > For the same reason no neo-Nazi has ever taken over Europe. Even if Kylo Ren _wanted_ to build a Death Star out of the mistaken belief that the first one was Vader’s pet project and not Tarkin’s, that does not mean he should have been able to. When the Empire built the Death Stars, they controlled almost the entire galaxy. The _losers_ of the Galactic Civil War should not have been building something hundreds of times bigger. This is a great point. > [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](#): > > People are entitled not to like it but it does sort of seem that they could never be satisfied. You can read similar reviews on IMDB where people give it 1 out of 10 and state they wished they were able to give 0. Which is of course ridiculous hyperbole. Yes, it is. And I guess you’re not talking about me, because I gave the movie 6 out of 10 on IMDB. But that’s not exactly a ringing endorsement either. > [@Dinsdale](#): > > Second issue - lots of people talk about BB8 and R2D2 communicating information and emotion very well. Am I the only one who considers most of it just bleeps and whistles? I hear a lot of emotion in the bloops and whistles. Are you autistic at all? (I don’t mean that in an insulting way: two of my four kids are on the spectrum.) > [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](#): > > The other point about he plot is that it was co-written by Lauwrence Kasdan who was behind the plot of Empire Strikes back and Return of the Jedi, so I don’t really feel the story has been hijacked by outsiders. Whether it’s outsiders has nothing to do with it. What I’ve read is that Lucas was behind the decision to recycle the Death Star plot the first time, in Jedi. That sucks also, but I thought I had read that Kasdan opposed it. If so, it’s ironic that he’s down for the threepeat. > [@joemama24\_98](#): > > I’m responding to this after leaving the thread for a week (so I suspect others have as well) but BINGO - this was the biggest plot hole to me. He had nothing to return to. I suppose you could say the same about Vader and that it would have been more of a personal redemption - one perhaps that could only be made at the end of one’s life. The concept of salvation worked well in the original trilogy, only because it happened at the end. Since you were gone from the thread, I will risk being repetitive and say I did not think it worked well in the original trilogy, for the reason you cite and what was laid out in the material you quoted. I fear Kylo is still going to get a redemption arc later though, which will be sickening. In fact, maybe I should avoid the future movies even on HBO or whatever unless and until I can get confirmation from someone I trust that he is never redeemed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645.md?page=52) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-force-awakens-seen-it-assume-spoilers-within/740645.md?page=54)