# Star Wars: The Last Jedi - seen it thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 13, 2017, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441 "2017-12-13T21:50:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2017, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/461 "2017-12-26T18:53:43Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > Maybe, instead of “backstory”, we should use “context”. In Ep 1-6 we learn that Palpatine and Vader kill everybody trained in The Force except for those who go into hiding. Except that, as I said above, this is NOT true. The Inquisitors were created - force users, minor Sith - to not only hunt down the remaining Jedi, but to collect force sensitive children to be raised and trained. How and where, we do not know. But Star Wars Rebels, which is canon, showed this to be happening. > [@](#): > > They are presented as the most powerful figures in the galaxy on the Dark Side. And they are, but others, such as Maul, his most stupidly named brother and many other ‘Not nearly Sith Lords’ are bouncing around there doing their own things. > [@](#): > > So where the heck does Snoke come from and where was he during Ep 1-6? He appears to be as powerful (if not more so) than Palpatine so why wasn’t he challenging Palpatine for supremacy? His character is just dropped into the story to be The Big Bad Guy and his presence seems to contradict the over-arching story established in Ep 1-6. Now that he’s dead it looks like we won’t get any context for how he fits. > > In Ep 4-6 we didn’t get much backstory on the emperor (Palpatine) but we didn’t need it because he didn’t invalidate anything that happened before. As I postulated: We have never seen the Order that took charge of those force sensitive babies, raised and trained them. Obviously such an order had to be headed by a strong force user. We know that there aren’t merely “two” Sith, as Duuku had Asajj Ventress and then Darth Maul as his servants, and there are a bunch of Inquisitors running around collecting babies and hunting Jedi. So what if Snoke was the head of this Order, oh, I dunno, let’s call it **The First Order** , and he gathered his forces and local Imperial forces after the deaths of Emperor Palpatine and Darth Vader? ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2017, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/462 "2017-12-26T23:25:07Z")
> [@TheBoltEater](#): > > What Luke has realized isn’t that the Jedi were wrong about what The Force IS, rather they’ve been wrong all this time about the right way to use it. Asking people to be emotionless automatons living exclusively to serve their religion is a recipe for failure. And when they do fail, they fail HARD. I agree with your post, for the most part. However, if you know some of the backstory in the Star Wars Universe, the Jedi Order has been around for some twenty thousand years, by the time of the events shown in Episodes I thru III. Fail HARD? Nah. They had a good run, IMO. But something happened. I think the Jedi lost their way, somehow. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2017, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/463 "2017-12-26T23:38:51Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > I agree with your post, for the most part. However, if you know some of the backstory in the Star Wars Universe, the Jedi Order has been around for some twenty thousand years, by the time of the events shown in Episodes I thru III. > > Fail HARD? Nah. They had a good run, IMO. But something happened. I think the Jedi lost their way, somehow. Your first paragraph explains the second. Hard to keep on track for twenty thousand years. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/464 "2017-12-27T00:02:27Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > Maybe, instead of “backstory”, we should use “context”. In Ep 1-6 we learn that Palpatine and Vader kill everybody trained in The Force except for those who go into hiding. They are presented as the most powerful figures in the galaxy on the Dark Side. We never learned that. We did learn that Palpatine and Vader killed all of the Jedi they could reach, but there’s no support for them killing ‘everybody trained in the Force’, especially non-jedi in outer rim areas that they don’t even control. > [@](#): > > So where the heck does Snoke come from and where was he during Ep 1-6? He appears to be as powerful (if not more so) than Palpatine so why wasn’t he challenging Palpatine for supremacy? I like that the new Star Wars movies are treating it like it takes place across an entire Galaxy, instead of in a small town where everyone has to bump into everyone before the movie ends. The idea that somewhere among the millions of worlds there’s a dude who wasn’t interested in fighting Palpatine during the events of the first six movies really doesn’t need much explanation. Maybe he didn’t care about the main portion of the Galaxy until it looked ripe for conquest, maybe he expected Palpatine to burn out the Dark side of the force and leave an opportunity for him, maybe he didn’t think he could stand up to Palpatine, maybe he was busy with another plot entirely, or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/465 "2017-12-27T00:28:11Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > I agree with your post, for the most part. However, if you know some of the backstory in the Star Wars Universe, the Jedi Order has been around for some twenty thousand years, by the time of the events shown in Episodes I thru III. > > Fail HARD? Nah. They had a good run, IMO. But something happened. I think the Jedi lost their way, somehow. (just saw TLJ) yeah, this is kind of where I am. It seemed like the Jedi were supposed to be the “keepers” of the Force, with them thinking they were anointed to determine when it is in “balance.” and carry themselves as emotionless automatons who are better than everyone else despite how some among them went bad. except that “going bad” doesn’t mean one of them uses the Force to shoplift, or push someone into a puddle from afar. It means that every so often they create _literally Hitler._ ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/466 "2017-12-27T01:34:58Z")
I thought it was fantastic. My only real criticism is the way Luke died. There was just no reason to kill him that way. He wasn’t old enough for “strain” to finish him off. Leia survives the vacuum of space but Luke dies from strain sitting on a rock? I’m also interested in the central moral conflict they seem to have highlighted that runs throughout the Star Wars movies: do you prioritize preserving what you have, or do you take risks, make sacrifices, to win big victories? The overriding theme of Last Jedi seemed to be the former. And this theme has run through the entire series, as the remaining Jedi scattered and hid rather than joining the rebels, and rebel leaders were often extremely cautious and unwilling to chance the lives of their paltry few warriors. But in the past, Star Wars always came down on the side of needing to take the chance, needing to make the sacrifice, for there to be any chance of victory. I’m hoping the next movie builds on that dilemma. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/467 "2017-12-27T03:47:45Z")
> [@wonky](#): > > Backstory on a bad guy is how we got the prequel nonsense that took a great villain and turned him into a whiny snot. As opposed to the new movies where we just start with a main villian who is a whiny snot 😛 I know I’m in the minority but I found Kylo Ren to be a very weak antagonist in Force Awakens and my opinion didn’t change based on this film. He lacks any gravitas or menace and “Oh, but that’s what makes him so dangerous because he’s, like, tormented and desperate to prove himself” doesn’t make him any better. Even knowing that the Good Guys will win, I go through these movies with no sense of suspense because it feels like the bad guy is incompetent and pathetic. I was pleased that the Porgs weren’t beaten into the ground with a rock but the tedious Space Monaco scene eliminated much of that goodwill. No fan of the Pokemon crystal foxes either. I liked Luke and Ren was good but I thought the acting on Rose was weak. Agreed that her knocking Finn off course felt more selfish than inspirational; she had no reason to suspect anything else would save them. I guess I didn’t hate it and was moderately entertained but it failed to really impress. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/468 "2017-12-27T04:21:44Z")
Kylo Ren’s “emo” nature is not what makes him dangerous, but it is what makes him an interesting and compelling character. You can sense the conflict and the motivation that turned him to the Dark Side. Anakin had none of that, he just seemed weak and sad, not conflicted and aggressive. What makes Kylo dangerous is that he’s so powerful and he uses that power for evil purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/469 "2017-12-27T04:24:21Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > Okay, just saw it and oh my God, what a huge disappointment. > First of all, the decision by Laura Dern’s character to not share their plan with the rest of her officers was STUPID. MORONIC. INSIPIDLY IDIOTIC. It goes against every principle of military planning. You WANT your subordinates to know the plan so that if you get killed, they can still carry it out. You certainly don’t taunt your subordinates to the point where they mutiny against you. The only reason for withholding the information from them was to withhold it from the audience, which is lazy, bad writing. And the only reason it worked after that was plot armor. > Second, if she could jump the fucking ship to hyperspace and take out the Imperial ships, why the HELL didn’t she do it BEFORE hundreds of her friends and allies were killed in the transports??? Fucking dramatic effect? More abject stupidity. > Third, why the FUCK did Rose prevent Finn from taking out the ram cannon? She didn’t know Luke Skywalker would appear and save everyone, so basically she was sacrificing Princess Leia and a shitload of her friends to save one man’s life because she liked him. What a huge dipshit! > Then there was the ending. It’s a brave decision to kill off 9/10 of the alliance and pretty much force the poor fucker who comes after you to make a huge time jump to continue the series, but the attitude of the main characters in the end was “oh, it’s ok, we’ve left the legends behind and that’s all we need to save the rebellion.” No you fucking morons, what you did was just condemn trillions of people to slavery under the First Order because you lack any sort of leadership or military planning skills. > Honestly, by the end, I wanted everyone but Rey, Poe and Finn to die. What a bunch of fucking morons. > Which means, in the end, that the writers and the director were the biggest fucking morons. Only thing i want to comment on is the suicide jump to lightspeed. As awesome as that was to see…it should be totally impossible. Otherwise…everyone would be doing it. Why didn’t those frigates do it before they ran out of power? A few comments: As i suspected i would see, Hamills complaints are actor vanity. “That’s not my Skywalker” Your character had one human moment of weakness. Get over it dude. You did a fantastic acting job and went out great. We need a trope named after ‘trope-smashing’. There sure was a lot of time dedicated to trope smashing. or Plan Smashing. The whole film in fact. Rey gets Luke to come with her. Finn sneaks aboard and disables the tracker. The transports cloak to the planet.Finn gets Flower codebreaker dude to come with them. We’ll send out a distress signal and our allies will come. Nope nope nope nope. And to be clear: We lost Phasma, Ackbar, Pancake Face, Vyvyan. Right? And? ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/470 "2017-12-27T04:34:58Z")
I’m not sure about Vyvyan / Ade Edmondson / First Order Officer Peavey. Not everyone on Snoke’s ship perished, and I don’t know where he was when it all went kablooey. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/471 "2017-12-27T04:36:14Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Only thing i want to comment on is the suicide jump to lightspeed. > > As awesome as that was to see…it should be totally impossible. Otherwise…everyone would be doing it. Why didn’t those frigates do it before they ran out of power? And why didn’t they do that to the first two Death Stars? ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/472 "2017-12-27T04:36:46Z")
I loved it but ill throw out some criticism. Too long and disjointed. So long. All the beats suffer. I love Kylo Ren and Driver but…where is this going?? What does Kylo Ren want? Revenge against all the father figures in his life? He’s got it. He accomplished his goal. And he goes to “Rule with me”?? Boring Kylo. As i said above, every single plan failed. It just hurts the beats in such a long film. It wanted to be a Star Wars film\* AND a very important film at the same time and it didn’t work in places. \*By that i mean “Hey, its a silly rollicking adventure just like the first one was in 1977. Cut us some slack. It’s Star Wars!” That’s about it. I liked a hell of a lot more than i disliked. But i can see how it’s divisive. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/473 "2017-12-27T04:42:53Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > Kylo Ren’s “emo” nature is not what makes him dangerous, but it is what makes him an interesting and compelling character. I understand that you see it that way, but I fail to find him interesting or compelling. He feels predictable and lame to me. Predictable could be okay if he was badass and awesome but lame isn’t a great combination. I can’t take him seriously as an antagonist. Phasma felt pointless. After the last film where she looked like an idiot and this film where she accomplished absolutely nothing, what was the point? ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/474 "2017-12-27T04:47:55Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > And why didn’t they do that to the first two Death Stars? They should have added something integral to the plot that almost always makes it impossible…but because of the tracking or some detail that everyone takes for granted made it possible in this one instance. I’m pulling this out of my ass: “Any hyperspace drive within 1000 miles will cause the ship to disentegrate upon impact. That includes our transports, our x-wings, THEIR drive. And even if we got past all that. The remaining fuel on our ship would implode…disintegrating us.” Then throw in that Snokes ship has damaged their own Drive by pushing their standard engines to the limit and constantly using the ion cannons. And they’ve pulled too far away from the rest of their fleet. So their you have it. A ridiculous set of circumstances that made it possible. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/475 "2017-12-27T04:49:38Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > I understand that you see it that way, but I fail to find him interesting or compelling. He feels predictable and lame to me. Predictable could be okay if he was badass and awesome but lame isn’t a great combination. I can’t take him seriously as an antagonist. > > Phasma felt pointless. After the last film where she looked like an idiot and this film where she accomplished absolutely nothing, what was the point? And we still didnt see her pretty head!! Maybe in the next movie we will see a bit more! ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/476 "2017-12-27T04:50:39Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > I understand that you see it that way, but I fail to find him interesting or compelling. He feels predictable and lame to me. Predictable could be okay if he was badass and awesome but lame isn’t a great combination. I can’t take him seriously as an antagonist. I could have, after he killed Snoke. But when he throws a hissy fit and allows the Resistance to escape to be fooled by Luke’s force ghost…then he just becomes a juvenile loser again. You know what would have been a much more interesting ending? If Rey had joined him and he’d ordered the ships to cease fire and let the Resistance get away. Then the third movie would have been one I actually was looking forward to seeing. At this point, I don’t even think I’m going to bother watching it. > [@](#): > > Phasma felt pointless. After the last film where she looked like an idiot and this film where she accomplished absolutely nothing, what was the point? To make another action figure to sell kids. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/477 "2017-12-27T04:58:58Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > I could have, after he killed Snoke. But when he throws a hissy fit and allows the Resistance to escape to be fooled by Luke’s force ghost…then he just becomes a juvenile loser again. > You know what would have been a much more interesting ending? If Rey had joined him and he’d ordered the ships to cease fire and let the Resistance get away. Then the third movie would have been one I actually was looking forward to seeing. At this point, I don’t even think I’m going to bother watching it. > > To make another action figure to sell kids. I was literally thinking “Please join him. Just to make it more interesting.” But then he threw out “To rule” and i was like “Oh come on!! She’s not gonna go for that Kylo” ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/478 "2017-12-27T05:11:52Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > To make another action figure to sell kids. Everyone was all excited about the Strong Female Character thing though so it seemed especially dumb that she’d have so little payoff. Snoke dying was what I meant by predictable. It was obvious a mile away that Kylo would wind up killing him after Ren & Rey have their “You’ll join me” “Nuh uh, you’ll totally join me” thing and then Kylo Ren gets the “kill her” command. I mean, Rey obviously wasn’t going to die. I’ll admit that I didn’t know exactly how Snoke would bite it – Kylo force choking him or shooting lightning or whatever – but it was clear that he would kill Snoke and save Rey. It was also obvious that he wouldn’t just go “I’m a good guy now!” I did appreciate that Snoke mocked him for his stupid helmet though and made him rage-smash it 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/479 "2017-12-27T10:47:27Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > And why didn’t they do that to the first two Death Stars? With the Death Stars, at least, it clearly wouldn’t have worked. The Rebel ship was slightly smaller than Snokes flagship, and wasn’t able to completely destroy it, just severely damage it. Versus something the size of a moon, the damage would be pretty negligible. Actually, if the gravity well aspect of hyperspace travel is still in play, it would be impossible - a Death Star is massive enough to pull any light speed ships out of ore they’d reach the surface. Hell, maybe that’s why we haven’t seen it before - all the big fleet battles we’ve seen have been in planetary gravity wells - Yavin, Scarif, Hoth, Endor, Coruscant. Encounters in deep space are probably pretty rare, as there’s seldom a reason to drop out of hyperspace when you’re not near a planet. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/480 "2017-12-27T11:10:39Z")
I think it may have also have something to with the First Order’s utter hubris and complacency. One could easily WAG that this kind of attack could have been prevented easily if they had been even slightly prepared for it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441.md?page=25)