# Star Wars: The Last Jedi - seen it thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 13, 2017, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441 "2017-12-13T21:50:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/541 "2017-12-28T17:10:51Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Much less hay is made of the First Order’s losses: their super-weapon, a dreadnought (presumably their best ship), their command ship Not sure what you mean to be the dreadnought and which the command ship, but the big one was [the headquarters of the First Order _and_ their mobile shipyards](http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Supremacy). So it should count as an even bigger loss than you suggested. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/542 "2017-12-28T17:39:16Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > There’s no real reason to think Rose is some master engineer, she’s a mechanic. Literally no one among the rebels except Finn even knew that the ram-cannon existed so expecting a random mechanic to know what it or isn’t going to damage a piece of First Order weaponry she’d never seen or heard of before is pretty exceptionally wanky. > > In fact, the one guy among the rebels vaguely qualified to say what the weak spot was, was the guy flying a collision course into it. Meh. Of the three jobs–starship engineer, fighter pilot, and ship custodian–I’d rank the likelihood of having taken a class called “The Physics and Limitations of Star Wars Beam Weapons” in that order from highest to lowest. Rose is likeliest to know the general theory and parameters of making these weapons, and likeliest to know what’s likely to work or not work in destroying them. Poe is next-likeliest, having trained in, y’know, the destruction of enemy ordnance. Finn? He might have dusted similar weapons in the past, but there’s nothing in his past that really qualifies him to make informed judgments on whether the strategy will work. He is, however, the one with the greatest emotional investment in proving his heroism to the rest of the alliance. It’s highly likely that his desire to go out a hero is overwhelming his common sense here. > [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Not sure what you mean to be the dreadnought and which the command ship, but the big one was [the headquarters of the First Order _and_ their mobile shipyards](http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Supremacy). So it should count as an even bigger loss than you suggested. Poe said in the movie that the first one was a dreadnought, I think. As for the HQ, that’s kinda what I meant by “command ship.” Did they mention in the movie that it was shipyards? In any case, my larger point is that the First Order overextended itself in a failed effort to eradicate the rebellion once and for all. The movie certainly didn’t leave the First Order in a strong position. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/543 "2017-12-28T17:39:56Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Btw, for anyone saying that the original trilogy had plot holes as big as those in TLJ, what are they? > > (And bear in mind that I really enjoyed the movie. But MAN did it contain a lot of stuff where the storytelling was either unclear or seemed to make no sense at all.) [https://screenrant.com/star-wars-original-trilogy-plot-holes/](https://screenrant.com/star-wars-original-trilogy-plot-holes/) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/544 "2017-12-28T17:40:37Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Ooh, an interesting (to me anyway) thought: Hux and Ren have, in some ways, the same vulnerability, one that’s driving people crazy. They’re ridiculously easy to trick, right? Hux falls for that transparent delaying tactic early on; Ren falls for Luke’s delaying tactic later. Their emotional states are too easy to read, and they’re shitty at reading other people, and over and over they fall for tricks. > > So why would Snoke put them in charge? > > Let me repeat: **they’re easy to trick**. > > Snoke’s rise to power is best explained by his own villain monologue: he’s a master manipulator. He’s really good at figuring out what motivates people and getting them to do what he wants. But his weakness is overconfidence in his own brilliance (thus his murder by his apprentice). This kind of asshole is gonna want to surround himself with people who constantly confirm his own brilliance: he’s never gonna fail in his attempts to manipulate Ren or Hux. > > It makes sense that an organization founded by a self-proclaimed master manipulator is going to have, at its highest levels, a couple of people whose primary weakness is the ease with which they’re manipulated. Heh. One loose end from THE FORCE AWAKENS was a big fine establishing moment for Kylo Ren, next to Darth Vader’s helmet. Remember that? _“Forgive me. I feel it again… The pull to the light… Supreme Leader senses it. Show me again… The power of the darkness… And I’ll let nothing stand in our way… Show me… Grandfather… and I will finish… what you started.”_ So he saw _something_; and, whatever it was, he (a) really wants to see it again, and he (b) thinks that it came from Grandpa. And, whatever it was, it was so amazingly tantalizing that – if he could just see it one more time – he’d throw himself into his work with nothing-stand-in-our-way zeal. Must’ve been tremendous! But, sure as we never actually saw what it _was,_ we also never actually got to see the blue ghost of Hayden Christensen show it to him; for all we know, it was somebody else entirely. And what’s the one other thing they helpfully spell out for us, there? Well, that Snoke has a direct line to Kylo Ren’s psyche. What if the whole thing was just Snoke all along? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/545 "2017-12-28T17:42:13Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Heh. One loose end from THE FORCE AWAKENS was a big fine establishing moment for Kylo Ren, next to Darth Vader’s helmet. Remember that? > … > What if the whole thing was just Snoke all along? Love it! ---
**Author:** ![edwards\_beard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7bcc69/32.png) [@edwards\_beard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwards_beard)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/546 "2017-12-28T18:08:53Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Ooh, an interesting (to me anyway) thought: Hux and Ren have, in some ways, the same vulnerability, one that’s driving people crazy. They’re ridiculously easy to trick, right? Hux falls for that transparent delaying tactic early on; Ren falls for Luke’s delaying tactic later. Their emotional states are too easy to read, and they’re shitty at reading other people, and over and over they fall for tricks. > > So why would Snoke put them in charge? > > Let me repeat: **they’re easy to trick**. > > Snoke’s rise to power is best explained by his own villain monologue: he’s a master manipulator. He’s really good at figuring out what motivates people and getting them to do what he wants. But his weakness is overconfidence in his own brilliance (thus his murder by his apprentice). This kind of asshole is gonna want to surround himself with people who constantly confirm his own brilliance: he’s never gonna fail in his attempts to manipulate Ren or Hux. > > It makes sense that an organization founded by a self-proclaimed master manipulator is going to have, at its highest levels, a couple of people whose primary weakness is the ease with which they’re manipulated. Are you trying to argue that the force has a strong influence on the weak minded? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/547 "2017-12-28T18:10:42Z")
> [@edwards\_beard](#): > > Are you trying to argue that the force has a strong influence on the weak minded? I…do believe I am :). ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/548 "2017-12-28T19:31:40Z")
_waves hand_ This is not the point you’re looking for… ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/549 "2017-12-28T20:05:24Z")
I haven’t read any of her backstory but in my head I assumed Laura Dern’s character was a survivor of Alderaan like Leia. At the very least it was clear her and Leia go way back. ---
**Author:** ![duality72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duality72/32/3910_2.png) [@duality72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duality72)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/550 "2017-12-28T20:32:29Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > \*the original trilogy were good Star Wars movies in 1977-1983. They’re cheez-ball in 2017. The story needs to move on. TLJ is the start of that. I’m all for it. I just hope they get better writers. In the 2017 sense, not the 1977 sense. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/551 "2017-12-28T20:48:27Z")
Speaking of retcons, the idea that what was considered good screenwriting and filmmaking in the American film industry of the 1970s would be laughable by the sophisticated standards of today? That goes diametrically against what every serious scholar of cinema has said for decades. Talk about a hot take! ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/552 "2017-12-28T21:28:17Z")
I think the dialog and acting from the original trilogy was pretty good. The only really bad parts came from Mark Hamill, and even then, mostly in A New Hope. He had some lines that were just horribly delivered, but by Empire he had improved his acting skills. But everyone else was fine. Harrison Ford was great, Carrie Fisher was great, Alec Guinness was great, and James Earl Jones was great. Billy Dee Williams had some cornball bits but I found him endearing. Something else worth mentioning is that all of the Imperial officers and functionaries - whose interactions with Vader and each other made up a substantial portion of the movies - were very believable, probably because they were almost all played by a bunch of older British men who would have actually served in the military at some point in their lives. Everything about the officious and formal rigidity of the Imperial military was totally believable and immersing. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/553 "2017-12-28T21:37:37Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > There’s no real reason to think Rose is some master engineer, **she’s a mechanic**. Literally no one among the rebels except Finn even knew that the ram-cannon existed so expecting a random mechanic to know what it or isn’t going to damage a piece of First Order weaponry she’d never seen or heard of before is pretty exceptionally wanky. > > In fact, the one guy among the rebels vaguely qualified to say what the weak spot was, was the guy flying a collision course into it. Bolding mine. Have you met sci-fi? Rose is a mechanic. If it’s got gears, pistons or hydraulics, she’ll be able to break it, fix it or convert it into something else. No one is complaining that she had no prior knowledge of the hyperspace tracker still knew exactly how to break it. I don’t get why that’s fine but her realization that Finn wasn’t going to achieve anything useful ramming the cannon is a step too far. No, she didn’t know Luke would show up. Sure, her actions may have simply delayed his death a few minutes. But as it turns out, those few minutes were what we needed for Luke to arrive. I bet you hate rom-coms where the true love shows up just as their erstwhile partner is about to say “I do” to the scheming antagonist too. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/554 "2017-12-28T21:39:09Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > I haven’t read any of her backstory but in my head I assumed Laura Dern’s character was a survivor of Alderaan like Leia. At the very least it was clear her and Leia go way back. I did read that they’re supposed to be childhood friends, which sounds like they’re borrowing from Winter’s backstory in the EU. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/555 "2017-12-28T22:11:41Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Meh. Of the three jobs–starship engineer, fighter pilot, and ship custodian–I’d rank the likelihood of having taken a class called “The Physics and Limitations of Star Wars Beam Weapons” in that order from highest to lowest. Rose is likeliest to know the general theory and parameters of making these weapons, and likeliest to know what’s likely to work or not work in destroying them. Poe is next-likeliest, having trained in, y’know, the destruction of enemy ordnance. Finn? He might have dusted similar weapons in the past, but there’s nothing in his past that really qualifies him to make informed judgments on whether the strategy will work. Nah. Finn was a Stormtrooper and, despite his between missions gig being custodial, was shown in the previous film to be trained as a soldier and at least knowable about rudimentary First Order equipment use. Rose was, according to the Stars Wars wiki, a “maintenance worker” and a “mechanic” who was unaware that such a weapon even existed. Yes, she went along to take down the tracker but only because Finn knew enough about the ship (and its weakness) for her to be useful. Note that I’m not saying that Finn had extensive schematic knowledge of the ram-cannon, just that he was the only one even vaguely qualified to make the call. Rose was not remotely qualified and her action served to endanger the entire remaining rebellion because of puppy love. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/556 "2017-12-28T22:31:05Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Right, but she didn’t undergo any real training there - it was more of an extended confrontation. Luke, OTOH, was shown actually learning stuff. I’m not sure if that’s true. She was clearly training with the lightsaber. She didn’t do much training on-screen with Luke the way he did with Yoda, but there’s an explanation for that that’s not totally a fanwank: it’s bad filmmaking, because we’ve already seen that movie. We don’t need to see her balancing on her head levitating rocks because we’ve already seen that. In fact, it would be boring and derivative to see a really similar training montage. We can see enough about her experience that parallels Luke’s training, and see him actually training her a bit, and fill in the pieces. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/557 "2017-12-28T23:07:17Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > I’m not sure if that’s true. She was clearly training with the lightsaber. She didn’t do much training on-screen with Luke the way he did with Yoda, but there’s an explanation for that that’s not totally a fanwank: it’s bad filmmaking, because we’ve already seen that movie. > > We don’t need to see her balancing on her head levitating rocks because we’ve already seen that. In fact, it would be boring and derivative to see a really similar training montage. We can see enough about her experience that parallels Luke’s training, and see him actually training her a bit, and fill in the pieces. So…they repeat a bazillion other things from earlier SW movies in TFA and TLJ, but not that? Mmmkay. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2017, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/558 "2017-12-29T00:10:09Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > I think the dialog and acting from the original trilogy was pretty good. The only really bad parts came from Mark Hamill, and even then, mostly in A New Hope. He had some lines that were just horribly delivered, but by Empire he had improved his acting skills. Out of curiosity, what lines do you have in mind? Because, sure, _Luke_ has some bad ones, but he’s _supposed_ to be the earnest farmboy who errs on the side of ‘whiny’: folks tell him things, and then explain when he fails to get it; folks lie to him, and he believes it; he says “what’s this” and “who is she” and “what’s going on” and “I don’t understand” and “why didn’t you say so” and “do you know what he’s talking about”, and et cetera; and he provokes reactions he genuinely didn’t expect, because, well, he’s basically just an ignorant young fish-out-of-water protagonist, is all. It’d be weird if Mark Hamill \*did \* sound assured and professional, is my point. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_lining](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Silver\_lining](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_lining)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2017, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/559 "2017-12-29T00:22:49Z")
Has the cat nip worn off yet? The movie was average at best with several roll eyes moments and plot holes. Skoke should been killed in the final movie. I’ll leave it for the Hollywood types to CGI Princess Leia again. Luke was turned into a coward and died an empty death. Finn isn’t very good at comic relief, and Rose’s point in the movie was? Where are they taking this franchise? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2017, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/560 "2017-12-29T01:09:48Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Nah. Finn was a Stormtrooper and, despite his between missions gig being custodial, was shown in the previous film to be trained as a soldier and at least knowable about rudimentary First Order equipment use. Rose was, according to the Stars Wars wiki, a “maintenance worker” and a “mechanic” who was unaware that such a weapon even existed. Yes, she went along to take down the tracker but only because Finn knew enough about the ship (and its weakness) for her to be useful. > > Note that I’m not saying that Finn had extensive schematic knowledge of the ram-cannon, just that he was the only one even vaguely qualified to make the call. Rose was not remotely qualified and her action served to endanger the entire remaining rebellion because of puppy love. I’m not gonna rehash what I’m saying; I’m just saying it makes way more sense to me that the mechanic would have the relevant expertise than either of the other two. YMMV, obviously. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441.md?page=29)