# Star Wars: The Last Jedi - seen it thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 13, 2017, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441 "2017-12-13T21:50:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2017, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/561 "2017-12-29T01:26:28Z")
Sure. I disagree and think that “But she’s a mechanic!” sounds like very strained fan wanking. Which you admitted that it was fan wanking to begin with and if it works for you, cool. I can’t get on board because it sounds ridiculous to me for my previously stated reasons. Obviously, she never says “My super space mechanic skills realized that it would never work” but rather some Pollyanna nonsense so there’s no real reason to assume that she was thinking critically or mechanically at all. It’s just something to pretend that she wasn’t endangering the remaining rebels for the sake of doe-eyes. That doesn’t even make it a bad movie but it makes me think poorly of the character. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2017, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/562 "2017-12-29T02:47:35Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Out of curiosity, what lines do you have in mind? Because, sure, _Luke_ has some bad ones, but he’s _supposed_ to be the earnest farmboy who errs on the side of ‘whiny’: folks tell him things, and then explain when he fails to get it; folks lie to him, and he believes it; he says “what’s this” and “who is she” and “what’s going on” and “I don’t understand” and “why didn’t you say so” and “do you know what he’s talking about”, and et cetera; and he provokes reactions he genuinely didn’t expect, because, well, he’s basically just an ignorant young fish-out-of-water protagonist, is all. > > It’d be weird if Mark Hamill \*did \* sound assured and professional, is my point. 100% agree with this. I’ve always been a defender of young Luke, and never laughed at his whininess. His arc is so clear through the trilogy, he has to be a naive teen longing for adventure in the first. It’s very much deliberate and perfectly realised. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2017, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/563 "2017-12-29T03:10:31Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > . > Obviously, she never says “My super space mechanic skills realized that it would never work” but rather some Pollyanna nonsense so there’s no real reason to assume that she was thinking critically or mechanically at all. It’s just something to pretend that she wasn’t endangering the remaining rebels for the sake of doe-eyes. That doesn’t even make it a bad movie but it makes me think poorly of the character. At _best_, she maintained the status quo. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2017, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/564 "2017-12-29T04:04:06Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Out of curiosity, what lines do you have in mind? Because, sure, _Luke_ has some bad ones, but he’s _supposed_ to be the earnest farmboy who errs on the side of ‘whiny’: folks tell him things, and then explain when he fails to get it; folks lie to him, and he believes it; he says “what’s this” and “who is she” and “what’s going on” and “I don’t understand” and “why didn’t you say so” and “do you know what he’s talking about”, and et cetera; and he provokes reactions he genuinely didn’t expect, because, well, he’s basically just an ignorant young fish-out-of-water protagonist, is all. > > It’d be weird if Mark Hamill \*did \* sound assured and professional, is my point. Totally agree with you and **GuanoLad**. Every time I hear complaints about Mark Hamill’s acting in the first movie and citations of lines like the one about Tashi station and the power converters, I grit my teeth and feel the complainers are entirely missing the point. I’m pretty picky about movies in general, which extends to Star Wars movies (I believe there are only really four good ones, that happen to be linked in chronological order although not in release date order: _RotS, Rogue One, Star Wars, ESB_) and I think Hamill portrays the young farmboy dreamer perfectly. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2017, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/565 "2017-12-29T06:37:32Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > Luke was turned into a coward and died an empty death. Luke isn’t a coward - he’s _broken_. His attempts to rebuild the Jedi order ended in destruction and the rise of the First Order to galactic domination, and it happened because of his own weakness and his inability to have faith in his best pupil. Think of him as a grizzled old veteran who’s seen too much shit to go back to having a normal life. His death was hardly empty, either - he realized he’d served his purpose and there was no reason for him to keep lingering on, and he surrendered himself to the Force. I won’t be the least surprised if we see him in Force Ghost form in Episode 9. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2017, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/566 "2017-12-29T06:45:33Z")
Luke followed the Jedi tradition of both of his mentors by hiding out on a remote planet for decades when things went to shit and he was at least partially responsible. Sure, he may have lost more hope than Kenobi or Yoda, but hiding out for decades is pretty damn normal for Jedi, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![dorvann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df705f/32.png) [@dorvann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dorvann)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2017, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/567 "2017-12-29T07:07:02Z")
Just saw _The Last Jedi_ today so I’ll give some of my own thoughts: First, I watched _The Star Wars Holiday Special_ (SWHS)for the first time two months ago and I can honestly say none of the theatrical films could possibly come close to how horrible the SWHS was. It was definitely one of the worst films I’ve ever seen. Second, as far Han’s and Luke’s deaths go, I kind of understand how the makers of the films are in box in how to use The Original Trilogy characters. Both the characters and the actors who portray them are older so it’s really not realistic to have them running around and fighting the bad guys. Third, I enjoyed _The Last Jedi_. I think it’s the best Star Wars film since _Return of The Jedi_. The only problems I had with it are: [ul] [li]I don’t think they used R2D2 and C3PO enough.[/li][li]Rey’s character is starting to have Mary Sue-like qualities.[/li][li]It’s too bad we didn’t see Lando Calrisssian in some form. or Boba Fett. or Lobot. or Ewoks. or perhaps Salacious Crumb.[/li][li]All the main characters are human. They really should add more nonhumans in main roles.[/li][/ul] I’m curious where they will go after Star Wars IX. Are they going to keep rehashing the whole Civil War dynamic they have been using for the past forty years? Frankly, I think they would be better off bringing some sort of external threat for them to fight. Perhaps an invasion force of an alien race of Force users. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2017, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/568 "2017-12-29T07:08:15Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Note that I’m not saying that Finn had extensive schematic knowledge of the ram-cannon, just that he was the only one even vaguely qualified to make the call. Rose was not remotely qualified and her action served to endanger the entire remaining rebellion because of puppy love. Except that this thread of discussions is only remotely relevant if we are somehow agreed that Rose had any reason to believe that Finn’s attack wouldn’t work… and I can’t see anything in the movie to indicate that. Her lines of dialog would make sense in a context like this: Finn has been recaptured by the First Order. He’s about to be executed, and then she does something daring and risky to save him, even though he seems on the surface expendable. Why? Because we fight to save the ones we love, yada yada yada. A lot of the movie is like that… they want to make some point, so they just make it, in whatever situation they’re in. After thinking about it some, I think I put Last Jedi in the same category as Harry Potter in some ways… I enjoyed it overall, because so many scenes were so much fun, the characters are great… but I just have to turn off the part of my brain which asks why no one has ever light-speed-rammed anyone before, and why the scoring in quidditch is so ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2017, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/569 "2017-12-29T07:11:48Z")
I will be shocked if they deviate from the formula that has become a financial cornerstone of the company. It’s really a shame audiences haven’t pushed them to do something different. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2017, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/570 "2017-12-29T08:21:22Z")
> [@dorvann](#): > > Rey’s character is starting to have Mary Sue-like qualities. Or perhaps you could say Jedi-like qualities. You can’t say Rey is any more “perfect” a character than Luke was in the OT, or any other superpowered male in a fantasy film. Everything Rey does that conveniently lets her win or allows the plot to move forward can be attributed to her tapping into the Force. “Mary Sue” does not apply. > [@dorvann](#): > > All the main characters are human. They really should add more nonhumans in main roles. That’s definitely true. They should also bring back more alien races we’ve seen before, instead of making all new ones all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2017, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/571 "2017-12-29T09:22:55Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > I’m not sure if that’s true. She was clearly training with the lightsaber. She didn’t do much training on-screen with Luke the way he did with Yoda, but there’s an explanation for that that’s not totally a fanwank: it’s bad filmmaking, because we’ve already seen that movie. I disagree. I think we were supposed to see that scene as an isolated incident, and not as part of some training montage. That, and when she confronted Luke, were the only times she activated the lightsaber on the island. Consider: angry, lost and distraught, she decides to train with her staff. Considering her proven combat skills, it’s obviously something she’s done many times before. After a while, more out of spite than anything else, she decides to move to her lightsaber. She’s successful at first, but she eventually gives in to the exhilaration and loses control, destroying what is probably an ancient and religiously-significant rock. Luke, who has been watching silently from afar, has all his worst fears confirmed once more. And… scene. That’s it. Best as I can tell, nothing important happened at Ach-To that were weren’t shown. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2017, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/572 "2017-12-29T10:32:06Z")
I don’t know that the rock was religiously significant or individually important. I think it was more that it rolled down and smashed the frog-nun’s cart. Besides the “Haha, can’t imagine why they don’t like you” sight gag, Rey let herself get prideful there when she sliced the rock in half for no better reason than “This is fun” and ruined some innocent’s day in the process. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2017, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/573 "2017-12-29T10:50:21Z")
Yeah, I was embellishing a bit with the rock. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2017, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/574 "2017-12-29T11:41:19Z")
> [@dorvann](#): > > First, I watched _The Star Wars Holiday Special_ (SWHS)for the first time two months ago and I can honestly say none of the theatrical films could possibly come close to how horrible the SWHS was. This is a good idea for helping keep perspective in general–_this is bad, but at least it isn’t an elderly wookie watching VR porn_. > [@](#): > > Second, as far Han’s and Luke’s deaths go, I kind of understand how the makers of the films are in box in how to use The Original Trilogy characters. Both the characters and the actors who portray them are older so it’s really not realistic to have them running around and fighting the bad guys. Yes, they waited far too long–the sequel trilogy needed to have been made 10 or 20 years ago by someone who wasn’t George Lucas. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2017, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/575 "2017-12-29T11:53:50Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I will be shocked if they deviate from the formula that has become a financial cornerstone of the company. It’s really a shame audiences haven’t pushed them to do something different. When they do more of the same (TFA), fanboys complain. When they do something different (TLJ), fanboys complain. I’ve realized ever since the release of The Phantom Menace that there’s a certain percentage of the Star Wars fanbase that will complain no matter _what_ the producers give them, but will keep watching and complaining anyway. Disney’s job isn’t to cater to them. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2017, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/576 "2017-12-29T11:54:11Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Totally agree with you and **GuanoLad**. Every time I hear complaints about Mark Hamill’s acting in the first movie and citations of lines like the one about Tashi station and the power converters, I grit my teeth and feel the complainers are entirely missing the point. I’m pretty picky about movies in general, which extends to Star Wars movies (I believe there are only really four good ones, that happen to be linked in chronological order although not in release date order: _RotS, Rogue One, Star Wars, ESB_) and I think Hamill portrays the young farmboy dreamer perfectly. Well, I just may be due for a re-watch and a re-evaulation of this position. I’ll report back… ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2017, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/577 "2017-12-29T12:42:04Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > When they do more of the same (TFA), fanboys complain. > > When they do something different (TLJ), fanboys complain. That’s disingenuous. The complaints about TLJ aren’t because it’s “different,” they’re because many people feel it shits all over Luke’s long-established character. My problem with TLJ, aside from bad writing and huge plot holes, is that it’s not different ENOUGH. It teases at the differences, then walks back from them in the end and makes everything status quo. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2017, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/578 "2017-12-29T14:16:34Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > That’s disingenuous. The complaints about TLJ aren’t because it’s “different,” they’re because many people feel it shits all over Luke’s long-established character. > My problem with TLJ, aside from bad writing and huge plot holes, is that it’s not different ENOUGH. It teases at the differences, then walks back from them in the end and makes everything status quo. Write and produce your own, then. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2017, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/579 "2017-12-29T15:01:36Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > That’s disingenuous. The complaints about TLJ aren’t because it’s “different,” they’re because many people feel it shits all over Luke’s long-established character. > My problem with TLJ, aside from bad writing and huge plot holes, is that it’s not different ENOUGH. It teases at the differences, then walks back from them in the end and makes everything status quo. Shitting on Luke’s character? That is \*not \*what I’ve read, either in this thread or the dozens of online “articles” complaining about TLJ, as the primary complaint. It’s mostly that it’s too different from what they expected (no Snoke backstory! Rey’s a nobody! Snoke dies! RJ ignored all of JJA’s set-ups!) I think I said it somewhere in this thread, but I don’t think this trilogy ends with a BIG RESOLUTION, in the way ROTJ resolved with the Emperor dying and Vader returning to the Light. I think this movie (and the next) is setting up a universe in which Ren is just the Supreme Leader, the Force is decentralized (no Jedi or Sith) and there will be dozens of new story possibilities that come from that. Not necessarily involving Kylo Ren or Rey or any of these movie characters, but with that as the backdrop. You may see a movie with Poe, or a TV series showing Snoke’s rise to power, or something altogether different in a new part of the galaxy. And you may get the eventual movie where you see some of these central characters come together for an epic battle (like when The Avengers movies bring the gang together). I actually think watching Kylo Ren develop from a whiny, insecure, manipulated young man into a more dominant and fearsome leader over the years will be the arc to watch. You want different? From everything I’ve read, Disney is going to be totally changing how we will get our Star Wars stories going forward. I think I read somewhere that an exec said that if all goes according to plan, no one alive today will be alive when they finally produce the final Star Wars movie. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2017, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/580 "2017-12-29T15:13:02Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > You want different? From everything I’ve read, Disney is going to be totally changing how we will get our Star Wars stories going forward. I think I read somewhere that an exec said that if all goes according to plan, no one alive today will be alive when they finally produce the final Star Wars movie. The don’t bother with CGI on the last one, by that time, Disney is so big they just build a death star and blow up the Earth. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441.md?page=30)